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U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#61

Post by tptacek »

eli wrote: post #58
vehementi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of hard to be a whistleblower without breaking some sort of secrecy law.

There actually are whistleblower protections he could have taken advantage of... but it would have meant working within the system (for example, taking his concerns to Congress or the NSA's Inspector General rather than a reporter) and it only applies if he uncovered fraud or illegal activity. AFAIK there isn't any proof that he uncovered anything illegal .

The national security establishment is more or less exempted from the whistleblower statutes.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#62

Post by dllthomas »

wl wrote: post #3
mindcrime wrote: post #2

Meanwhile, the petition to pardon him[1] only needs ~8000 more signatures to require a response. [1]: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow...

The response they've given in the past to pardon petitions isn't much of a response at all. I expect a similar non-answer here. Cf. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/why-we-cant-commen... https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/why-we-can’t-comme...

From the Bradley Manning link: "the White House may decline to address certain procurement, law enforcement, adjudicatory, or similar matters properly within the jurisdiction of federal departments or agencies, federal courts, or state and local government."

This is a petition to pardon, which is solely the power of the President. They can't - with any legitimacy - claim that commenting on this would be stepping on someone else's toes.

Apparently, they "[do] not comment, however, on individual pardon applications," according to the Marc Emery. I hope they will make an exception in this case, as this instance speaks to much broader policy. Regardless, sign the petition!

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#63

Post by jdp23 »

charonn0 wrote: post #54

Why is he being charged in the Eastern District of Virginia when the alleged crime was perpetrated in Hawaii? Shouldn't any prosecution be under the original jurisdiction of the District of Hawaii/9th Circuit? Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed[...]

From the article:

The complaint was filed in the Eastern District of Virginia, a jurisdiction where Snowden’s former employer, Booz Allen Hamilton, is headquartered and a district with a long track record of prosecuting cases with national security implications.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#64

Post by BHSPitMonkey »

wisty wrote: post #18
fragmede wrote: post #6

Interestingly, according to that article, he hasn't been charged with treason, 'just' espionage, theft and conversion of government property. Someone more qualified than I can elaborate, but treason is a much harder crime to prove than espionage (like murder vs. manslaughter). Edit: According to the video link provided by spdy, the crime needs to exist in both systems (ie Hong Kong and the US) in order for an extradi…

Can you imagine a jury of 12 all believing that what he did was not in the interests of his country?

That would depend on the definition of "country" used (its leadership/government or its citizens), and whether or not the jury can be convinced that the secrecy of the leaked programs was in the citizenry's best interests.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#65

Post by sigzero »

jlgreco wrote: post #44
sigzero wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of those is ever going to happen, petition or no petition.

Of course, but that is a poor reason to not make your voice heard.

Who do you think is reading that petition? I would postulate, only the signers. You also make it sound like that is the only way to get your voice "heard".

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#66

Post by rdl »

tptacek wrote: post #61
eli wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There actually are whistleblower protections he could have taken advantage of... but it would have meant working within the system (for example, taking his concerns to Congress or the NSA's Inspector General rather than a reporter) and it only applies if he uncovered fraud or illegal activity. AFAIK there isn't any proof that he uncovered anything illegal .

The national security establishment is more or less exempted from the whistleblower statutes.

Going to NSA IG or the PSCI's in Congress are protected (the whole point of NSA IG is internal malfeasance, it's not just for stealing cafeteria trays...). The problem is that route of reporting may be ineffective, and once you start, you'll lose all future access, come under suspicion, and may actually still be charged (the whistleblower stuff helps more with not getting convicted).

I was originally thinking "he should have gone to IG/Congress rather than the press", but seeing the Binney/Drake/Wiebe interview where they all had gone through the IG/Congress process themselves, recognized they'd accomplished fuck-all, and supported Snowden's decision to go directly to the press/public, kind of convinced me.

I personally might have considered going to someone else in government, other than IG or H/SPSCI -- like to Udall or Rand Paul or maybe even a judge or governor -- as more effective than the "official" channels, but less illegal than a journalist.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#67

Post by jlgreco »

sigzero wrote: post #65
jlgreco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but that is a poor reason to not make your voice heard.

Who do you think is reading that petition? I would postulate, only the signers. You also make it sound like that is the only way to get your voice "heard".

You're right, I've wasted 30 seconds of my life. I am now filled with regret.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#68

Post by dllthomas »

mindstab wrote: post #31
wisty wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine a jury of 12 all believing that what he did was not in the interests of his country?

Sadly that's not how your legal system works any more. I don't have the link handy but it came up here recently with that environmental activist who just got out of jail for breaking up an illegal auction of land. He thought he'd be fine but when the prosecution found that many of the jurors had received a juror's rights pamphlet out lining the basic foundations of your country like that jurys are supposed to be a so…

I think you're talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#69

Post by zacharyvoase »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. In addition, of course, to asking for a complete pardon for Snowden. It also should be noted that any of the Congressional investigations into this mess are perfectly capable of giving Snowden a grant of immunity from prosecution. People ask what to do. There are at least two avenues open to nip this…

The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State, which in this case they have done.

I’m wondering how grand juries play into this—the Fifth Amendment states that “no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury” (except for those in the military, which I think he wouldn’t classify as).

There’s a great article here which describes the power which Grand Juries used to wield in the indictment process, specifically the ability to act on their own, investigate, and actually challenge the federal prosecutor rather than just rubber-stamping each case: http://constitution.org/lrev/roots/runaway.htm

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#70

Post by krapp »

wisty wrote: post #18
fragmede wrote: post #6

Interestingly, according to that article, he hasn't been charged with treason, 'just' espionage, theft and conversion of government property. Someone more qualified than I can elaborate, but treason is a much harder crime to prove than espionage (like murder vs. manslaughter). Edit: According to the video link provided by spdy, the crime needs to exist in both systems (ie Hong Kong and the US) in order for an extradi…

Can you imagine a jury of 12 all believing that what he did was not in the interests of his country?

To be fair, what he did could be in the interests of his country and still be considered espionage, depending on the details of the case. I think a very likely opinion would be, yes, the programs he exposed were wrong and yes, he's a hero but also a traitor.

I only say this because I expect the bulk of comments to this post to suggest the reason Americans might find him guilty would be narrow-mindedness or some sort of fascist tendency, but that's not necessarily going to be the case even if they do. Anti China/Anti-communist bias definitely would play a part, but the charges could possibly stick on their own merits, even if Americans are uncomfortable with the nature of what he exposed.

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