All I could think of was Tron Carter: "I pleads the fizivth": http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/3vk26x/chappelle-s-...
Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
151–160 of 202 posts
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#152[deleted]
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't actually have the right to provide false answers in many situations and doing so could actually be a crime.
I heard somewhere that lying to police is punishable by something like three years in jail in the US. Unless you killed someone or are a repeat offender, lying may well get you a harsher sentence than your original crime. And of course, it's very easy to lie accidentally: You may honestly be confused, mis-remember, make a mistake, or tell them a true fact that doesn't fit with incorrect information they obtained from…
False statements to the feds carry a 5yr sentence. See: Martha Stewart.
It's pointless to argue this point, because the simple rule is, as you say, never to talk to the police, and have a lawyer and audio recorder if you do.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#154I'm rather surprised that not one student published a picture of the survey from a cell phone.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
And this is also why we fire programmers who create bugs. ...wait.
"And this is why we draw and quarter drunk drivers" ....wait Of course we don't draw and quarter drunk drivers. Just because an offense does not require mens rea does not mean that we throw out all sense of proportional punishment. Firing programmers for creating bugs (an offense without mens rea) is massively disproportionate, which is why we don't do it (at least until the severity and frequency of the bugs becomes…
> (an offense without mens rea)
It's as if we don't know that it was malicious and recognize that, just perhaps, we should ascribe incompetence first.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
The survey is compelling students, under color of legal authority, to confess to crimes. This confession can later be construed as "discoverable evidence" leading to actionable charges. The objection here is to "fishing expeditions" wherein evidence is gathered en masse under an innocent pretext, and later (whether planned or not) an authority could gain access to that information and use it against the coerced stude…
Your statement of the rule is both too broad ("the government is not allowed to demand evidence of criminal culpability") and yet insufficiently broad to capture the activity the school engaged in (a survey by the school administration designed to gather information about potential psychological issues).
You missed the clause "without warranted cause" (make that "warrantable") in that quotation.
Broad-based gathering of information about potential psychological issues, without anonymity and with viable consequences of expulsion or prosecution, is nothing more than a "fishing expedition"/"witch hunt" - exactly the kind of thing the 4th and 5th Amendments are intended to protect against.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
Never blame on malice what can be blamed on incompetence. In this case my capacity for outrage is exhausted. I've been through too many permutations of this particular type of outrage that this is in line with my expectations. And yes, if the survey is as described, the teacher should be commended. Not punished. But that's out of my hands, though if someone gives me someone to email, I will do so.
> Never blame on malice what can be blamed on incompetence. So, does the early bird get the worm or do good things come to those who wait? We're maybe too inclined to just assert these sorts of things as fact. (This includes me.)
Except this piece of wisdom is extremely valid. Assuming everybody else is both supremely competent and consistently malicious goes against most people's experience. You give humanity far too much credit by assuming everyone is an evil mastermind.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't actually have the right to provide false answers in many situations and doing so could actually be a crime.
I heard somewhere that lying to police is punishable by something like three years in jail in the US. Unless you killed someone or are a repeat offender, lying may well get you a harsher sentence than your original crime. And of course, it's very easy to lie accidentally: You may honestly be confused, mis-remember, make a mistake, or tell them a true fact that doesn't fit with incorrect information they obtained from…
I believe that lying to federal officials is the serious problem. There was a recent story (sorry don't have the link handy) which can be summed up by saying don't speak to any federal officials, even if they say it's just an "interview" and not an interrogation, without your lawyer present, and a recorder running.
I'm not sure what the ramifications would be of a minor lying on a survey administered by school administrators. I doubt if students could be charged with a crime for lying under these circumstances, but I can envision other problems if students admitted to drug or alcohol use on a survey that identified them by name.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
I heard somewhere that lying to police is punishable by something like three years in jail in the US. Unless you killed someone or are a repeat offender, lying may well get you a harsher sentence than your original crime. And of course, it's very easy to lie accidentally: You may honestly be confused, mis-remember, make a mistake, or tell them a true fact that doesn't fit with incorrect information they obtained from…
I believe that lying to federal officials is the serious problem. There was a recent story (sorry don't have the link handy) which can be summed up by saying don't speak to any federal officials, even if they say it's just an "interview" and not an interrogation, without your lawyer present, and a recorder running. I'm not sure what the ramifications would be of a minor lying on a survey administered by school admini…
> I doubt if students could be charged with a crime for lying under these circumstances
Probably not. The comment I replied to was saying that choosing to lie instead of self-incriminate is sometimes a crime, and I was elaborating on that.
> federal officials
This advice applies to state and local officials, too.
> I'm not sure what the ramifications would be of a minor lying on a survey administered by school administrators
Probably nothing.
> other problems if students admitted to drug or alcohol use on a survey that identified them by name.
Yes, if the survey results ever get out, they might later be used as evidence. Don't say it's not possible -- the police might find an excuse to subpoena the results and get a lax judge to sign off on it, and I seriously doubt that school officials would be willing to go to jail for their students by not complying. Or the results could be stolen, leaked, or hacked.
Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could be. I couldn't find a report of a kid reporting their own transgression to the school, to see if admitting active drug or alcohol use is tantamount to possession on school property. The administrator may still be required to report the crime to the police, however.
Again, I think you are mistaken. Drugs and alcohol are common problems among teens, and school officials and counselors often try to help students with those problems.
If a joint or flask falls out of the teen's backpack while in the counselor's office, they get arrested and expelled, if everyone's following the policy. But yes maybe they can get away with admitting they are using.