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Bullying has to stop, now.

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Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#151

Post by stared »

Nursie wrote: post #109
stared wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society. [citation needed] ...and on the other hand putting smart kids _willing_ to learn in an uninspiring and oppressive environment. (Bad for their learning and devastating for their still developing personality.) IMHO it's hard to find a worse crime against natural curiosity and willingness than _forcing_ people to do something.

Smart kids willing to learn - how do they know? How do we pick out these smart kids and make sure they get education? Even if they're not from good backgrounds? How do we get these smart kids out of their crappy homes and make sure somebody teaches them something, anything, unless it's mandatory? YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't…

Just providing a good environment for learning (teachers explaining things, eager to answer question).

For ones wanting to learn, just don't force them to do so. OK, is someone is not much willing to learn - well, then it may be good to force to do so. But don't force everyone because some need it.

(It seems that forcing people to learn is very inefficient. And I think for that reason many times school are places to socialize, bully and drink doing not much work that it is necessary to survive... and not much places actually good for learning anything.)

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#152

Post by cema »

prawks wrote: post #78
polymatter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.

I would say both that how "ability" is measured, as well as that a 5-year-old's ability is nowhere near an indicator of their future ability. I doubt anyone could argue against things like AP classes, etc. in high school, but 5-year-olds?

It's not about a future ability. It's about the current ability of the 5-year old person. Next year she will be retested and reassessed.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#153

Post by thejteam »

moron4hire wrote: post #98
thejteam wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with ability based groupings across age groups is that doesn't take into account learning velocity, ie the speed at which people learn new things. For example, a second grader that is at a fourth grade math level is likely to learn much faster than a fifth grader at a fourth grade math level. And you don't want to put advanced 8 year olds in a class with slow 11 year olds. That in itself is an invitation…

The problem is the classroom environment itself. The lecture format is an antiquated relic. We don't ever do the lecture format again once we leave school, which I think is pretty good evidence that it's garbage. You might submit conferences as a counterexample, but I would submit them in favor of my argument.

I firmly agree with you that classroom lectures are garbage. We homeschool our children. I'm simply making the point that, at least among younger children, age based classes are preferable to skill-based classes.

A preferable alternative in my mind would be a classroom where ALL work is done independently. The teacher then calls each student to their desk individually to see what they have learned and what they need help with. They can then spend 10-15 minutes individually with each student per day. Fast students can get pushed ahead and slow students can get the help they need instead of being forced along with the rest of the class.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#154

Post by adrr »

ErrantX wrote: post #15

I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me). A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talke…

There is no justice, life isn't fair and people aren't born equal. I hate to seem cynical but these are valuable life lessons for kids to learn to prepare them for real life.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#155

Post by klsw »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #72

Is it fair to hypothesize that a high proportion of people working in tech today were bullied and abused as children? Yet here we are today, as a community, still bullying, intimidating and harassing women who try to join our field. Something to think about as we recall the hurts that seared and traumatized us not so many years ago.

I study CS at a (top* ) UK university.

Having spoken to a fair few people, a pattern that became plain as day very quickly was that almost all of us have had a background that either very specifically involved bullying as children or at the very least would have set us aside very strongly (heavy therapy for various reasons being one example). It's actually joked about at this university in multiple disciplines, however, that it's hardly uncommon for those who attend here to be 'crazy' in some way.

Lest you fear self-selection due to my own background I would point out that various circumstantial factors (including simply having spoken to many, many people) lead me to believe that I have enough of a sample to believe that isn't the case. Once again, when talking about others' lives I'll try to give as little identification as possible.

* I thought at length before putting that in, but I would hope that HN comments aren't likely fodder for the sort of 'shocker' article that graces rag news headlines.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#156

Post by Nursie »

mnicole wrote: post #143
Nursie wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart kids willing to learn - how do they know? How do we pick out these smart kids and make sure they get education? Even if they're not from good backgrounds? How do we get these smart kids out of their crappy homes and make sure somebody teaches them something, anything, unless it's mandatory? YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't…

It was very noticeable to me, by second grade, who was there to learn and who was just there because they were forced to wake up and walk to a bus stop in the morning. While I was lucky enough to be put into some specialty classes based on previous testing I'd done, the majority of my day was still spent sitting next to kids who were literally drying glue in their desks, pouring ink into it to color it and eating it…

Can't disagree with that. But at that age some of the 'forced to wake up and walk to the bus-stop' kids still have a long way to grow and change.

I don't know the system in the US very well. Kids can go to different sorts of colleges post-16 here in the UK, or could (until recently, this may have changed) opt out at that age and enter the workforce.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#157

Post by Nursie »

stared wrote: post #151
Nursie wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart kids willing to learn - how do they know? How do we pick out these smart kids and make sure they get education? Even if they're not from good backgrounds? How do we get these smart kids out of their crappy homes and make sure somebody teaches them something, anything, unless it's mandatory? YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't…

Just providing a good environment for learning (teachers explaining things, eager to answer question). For ones wanting to learn, just don't force them to do so. OK, is someone is not much willing to learn - well, then it may be good to force to do so. But don't force everyone because some need it. (It seems that forcing people to learn is very inefficient. And I think for that reason many times school are places to…

Without 'forcing' kids to school, how do we find the ones that supposedly need it?

And how do we get kids who could use it, but from backgrounds that wouldn't bother to educate them at all, into the system?

Mandatory education is a good thing.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#158

Post by kstenerud »

There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it.

I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a few times, but you don't actually need to win the fight. Once they realize that you won't just passively take it, they leave you alone. You will, however, have to deal with ignorant teachers.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#159

Post by geogra4 »

japhyr wrote: post #146

I have been teaching for about 15 years, with a mix of high school and middle school experience. I also worked for 6 months in an elementary school supporting students behaviorally. I have seen bullying my entire professional life. I have participated in countless professional development experiences over the years, and I have grown a healthy skepticism towards commercial offerings that aim to solve school-based prob…

This is brilliant, thank you!

I was lucky never to be bullied physically in school. But I deeply sympathize with those that have been.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#160

Post by drakeandrews »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #72

Is it fair to hypothesize that a high proportion of people working in tech today were bullied and abused as children? Yet here we are today, as a community, still bullying, intimidating and harassing women who try to join our field. Something to think about as we recall the hurts that seared and traumatized us not so many years ago.

It's very easy for the abused to turn into abusers, hell I nearly did. It is what is making me so uncomfortable reading these comments advocating that the solution is to let the abused extract violence on their abusers. In too many cases, the abused discovers that they like the taste of violence, the power it grants them over those weaker or slower than them. And I can't knock them for that, violence feels wonderful. That's why I've had to be very careful not to let myself slip into that mold and remind myself that on the other side there is someone who is feeling the very same pain you shirk from.
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