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The disappearance of Japan's animators

economist.com

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Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#151

Post by stuaxo »

frmersdog wrote: post #90

Hey, hi, yoohoo whistles . Everyone gather 'round and reread this part: Lacking proper training and a viable salary, many young animators don’t feel they can keep going. The Japan Research Institute estimated that a quarter of them quit the industry within four years, and two-thirds in eight years. This retention problem has often been viewed as a form of natural selection. “I think this way of thinking is misguided,…

Yep, the current systems incentives are not aligned with it's continued existence.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#152

Post by bitwize »

avadodin wrote: post #137
bitwize wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heavy lifting in terms of realizing vision was already done in the design, layout, and keyframing phases. The in-between frames are interpolations, that's why they're sent to sweatshops. And the idea is that you wouldn't proompt them like you do Midjourney; you'd send the AI keyframes and it would geberste the in-betweens. I can totally see where an animator might be dissatisfied with doing this on a hand-drawn p…

People are not going to understand my generic reincarnation harem anime if it doesn't involve Koreans working 120+h weeks for minimum wage. Just the staggering amount of anime produced these days blows my mind. One could die of overwork just binge watching them.

I was thinking more like Disney. Studio Ghibli would want to hand-draw everything as well; Miyazaki's abhorrence for AI is well documented.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#153

Post by gruez »

coldtea wrote: post #147
jimmydorry wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it takes is a populist with a good message to make a political group. All functional Western nations have voting mechanisms that allow for radical government change, if there is enough public support for it. It might take a decade to fully manifest, but if we're entering an age of such extreme, then I would expect people to eventually vote for such change.

> All functional Western nations have voting mechanisms that allow for radical government change Voters never get what they vote for.

The RNC tried to stop Trump from winning the candidacy but he won regardless. The fact that MAGA movement is seemingly enthralled to him means at least some people are getting who they voted for, and therefore your statement can't possibly be true.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#154

Post by pfdietz »

bsenftner wrote: post #142
DanielHB wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked with CNC machining shops in Sweden and the people working there made the exact same points. CNC is not exactly an art form, but programming the machines definitely has some craftsmanship aspects to it. Even considering that after a part is programmed it can then be mass produced. - Very hard to get young people in because entry level pays very poorly AND requires non-trivial amounts of training. - Razor-thin…

Capitalism's core aspect is exploitation, of course this is the result. Capitalism, that "nothing can beat this economic system" winner is a winner because it is immoral, folks. It is based on exploiting those with no alternative. Of course this decimation of competing participants is part of its core operation. Capitalism is a controlled conflict. It is slow violence.

Those being hired in the low labor cost countries don't view it as exploitation. They view it as a gift, opportunities and outcomes they didn't have before.

People complain about inequality. This migration of jobs from rich to poorer countries is the market dealing exactly with that. Maybe inequality is ok if you're benefiting from it?

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#155

Post by quickthrowman »

michael1999 wrote: post #149
ItsYan wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is not so much that, but rather that if you hire average people with average skills or people that require training you go out of business because the shop next door won't. If only workers would form some kind of a community, which would take monthly contributions and that would then be used to upskill. It would unite most, if not all people in the same industry.

Are there countries where trade unions are still active in training? Most places I see they are entirely focused on wage bargaining, and are happy to gut training for the young if they can maintain the generous pensions of the old.

Trade unions in the US do educate and train apprentices, I’m most familiar with the IBEW (electricians).

Local IBEW halls have apprentice programs (JATC is an common name for this program) where the apprentices go to class at the union hall one day a week for 20 weeks a year and spend the rest of the time working in the field.

I am pretty sure that sheet metal workers, pipefitters, and plumbers unions offer similar programs.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#156

Post by famouswaffles »

bambeeno wrote: post #124
famouswaffles wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's just texturing over a labor intensive 3D animation >You're already lost if you need perfect 3D renders as the reference The reference is far from a "perfect 3D render". That's a rudimentary 3D blockout. The characters are basic mannequins without specific geometry, and the environment is composed of untextured, flat-shaded boxes. The demo uses stock assets so effort meter is even more skewed in AI's favour bu…

To see this and imagine this it without seeing context and intention, outside of a production proper, is missing the point. Of ot doesnt do exactly what you envisioned with the ease of your current tools or better is pretty much useless. Ai art looks good for non artists, ai writing for non writers, ai medical advice… for non doctors.

I mean We're on here discussing something an experienced animator shared aren't we ?

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#157

Post by casey2 »

frmersdog wrote: post #90

Hey, hi, yoohoo whistles . Everyone gather 'round and reread this part: Lacking proper training and a viable salary, many young animators don’t feel they can keep going. The Japan Research Institute estimated that a quarter of them quit the industry within four years, and two-thirds in eight years. This retention problem has often been viewed as a form of natural selection. “I think this way of thinking is misguided,…

Why would Japanese studios outsource when Japanese artists are paid less than Chinese ones?

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#158

Post by nsvd2 »

DanielHB wrote: post #138
frmersdog wrote: post #90

Hey, hi, yoohoo whistles . Everyone gather 'round and reread this part: Lacking proper training and a viable salary, many young animators don’t feel they can keep going. The Japan Research Institute estimated that a quarter of them quit the industry within four years, and two-thirds in eight years. This retention problem has often been viewed as a form of natural selection. “I think this way of thinking is misguided,…

I worked with CNC machining shops in Sweden and the people working there made the exact same points. CNC is not exactly an art form, but programming the machines definitely has some craftsmanship aspects to it. Even considering that after a part is programmed it can then be mass produced. - Very hard to get young people in because entry level pays very poorly AND requires non-trivial amounts of training. - Razor-thin…

If this is happening in software engineering it would imply that Americans are moving to other, higher paid work which doesn't seem to be the case.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#159

Post by pdimitar »

gruez wrote: post #153
coldtea wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All functional Western nations have voting mechanisms that allow for radical government change Voters never get what they vote for.

The RNC tried to stop Trump from winning the candidacy but he won regardless. The fact that MAGA movement is seemingly enthralled to him means at least some people are getting who they voted for, and therefore your statement can't possibly be true.

I doubt they voted for increased fuel prices.

Re: The disappearance of Japan's animators

#160

Post by pdimitar »

jimmydorry wrote: post #140
coldtea wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we really have to start thinking about how to organize work at a fundamental level Who is this "we"? As if society at large gets a say? Do people owning land and houses ask the homeless of how to organize home ownership?

All it takes is a populist with a good message to make a political group. All functional Western nations have voting mechanisms that allow for radical government change, if there is enough public support for it. It might take a decade to fully manifest, but if we're entering an age of such extreme, then I would expect people to eventually vote for such change.

Having the mechanism does not equal guaranteeing the positive result that this mechanism theoretically allows.

Politicians' whole schtick is to promise the sun and the moon and then give their buddies the lucrative government contracts, do insider trading, and generally create hidden rings of influence.

Voting and democracy in general are a facade and have been probably ever since they first existed. Not seeing that seems... a strange form of idealism, to me.

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