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All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

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Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#151
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will perhaps be overkill for what you're trying to achieve, but there is Object Process Methodology (OPM)[1] which may be inspiration for modelling recipes. It looks similar to the methodology you're using, and as an example, expects the following type of modelling: "peeling carrot" (process) consumes "washed carrot" (object) "peeling carrot" (process) yields "peeled carrot" (object) "peeling carrot" (process) y…

OPM looks like a great way to implement a free-style crafting system for a roguelike. I mean instead of having standard recipes that you have to assemble you could invent your own by putting together basic ingredients but then you need a way to know what comes out (and its effects I guess). I don't know if any existing games do that.

Also have a look at Inform 7[1] (domain specific language for interactive fiction), specifically the "Stone" example section[2] which explains edible food and the effects different foods may have on the adventurer.

It's similar concept to OPM with some modelling basics already built on top for player movement throughout a world, player interaction with objects (looking at, lifting, moving), and many other primitives needed to write interactive fiction. And relevant to this thread, Inform 7 of course has modelling basics for a player eating food, drinking potions, etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inform#Inform_7_programming_la...

[2] https://ganelson.github.io/inform-website/book/RB_9_1.html

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#152

I don't see why the title needs to be quite so grandiose.

It's an appeal to the attention economy. "All of human cooking compressed into 2 MB" is(mentally) palatable relative to "Navigating the Emergent Geometry of Food Ingredient Embeddings". Getting you to click is the ultimate goal.

The latter alternative might get even more clicks on HN.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#153
There is such a large discrepancy in the number of recipes in the training data for South Asia vs other macro regions. I wonder what that impact that has on the study. I also wonder why there aren't mor recipes available for this region with such a deep culinary tradition.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The space of palatable human food is small. There are only a few thousand ingredients and a few thousand preparation techniques. This could easily be compressed at high fidelity into a model.

There are only a “few thousand ingredients” seems like orders of magnitude off

I'm sorry to repeat myself but this bothers me because this is my specialization.

There are less than 7 thousand ingredients [1]. Even if you think it's way more than that on account of underrepresented cultures (which does not seem to be the case in this particular study), it's still just a few thousand. Most cuisines use around 50 of them.

[1] https://flowingdata.com/2018/09/18/cuisine-ingredients/

The total number of cooking techniques should be in the hundreds (not thousands), to be generous, even accounting for historical / prehistorical techniques.

So yeah, this checks out.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#156
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trouble I find with LLM generated recipes is they miss the nuance of the technique. Often the success of a depends on a single step or ratio. For instance “fried chicken” has a million incarnations the world over, but you can’t just average out the recipes and end up with tasty fried chicken. Specify what technique you want. Explicitly say you want to correctly follow all the techniques of the chosen cuisine. A…

> All the LLMs have ingested nearly every cookbook ever made, across multiple languages. That's not a positive thing, good recipe developers are Rare . For every recipe that's been meticulously tested and documented there are 1000 that haven't been. Many cookbooks are riddled with errors.

Sure, but most recipe books are just copies of other good recipe books. There are only so many ways to bake cookies.

I've always been a pretty good cook, but I've been able to pull off some really cool stuff with the help of ChatGPT lately. It is probably just an incremental lift, and I still catch it making errors from time to time, but it has been a huge help in the kitchen.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#157
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 2,000+ varieties of mangoes alone. You could literally end up with a larger file using only mangoes.

Was going to give the same example with chili peppers. Tons of varieties and not exactly interchangeable

Thousands of cheeses, each of which is a unique experience. Heck, even the serving temperature completely alters the experience. Next: wines, charcuterie, ...

Pity the fool who can't taste the difference between any of these.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm missing something, there's also nothing in the paper to indicate this is "all of human ingredients"? It looks like it's 11 data sources covering a bunch of common cuisines, with the English + Chinese sources accounting for 90% (!) of the dataset. Among others, Africa and the Arab world are not present in the data (good for about 25% of the global population). Also, all non-English terms were AI-translated…

Leaving out Indian, Southeast Asian and Arab cuisine means this is nigh useless.

It's worst than useless, it's borderline criminal /s

The fabricated title targeted the sensation rather than substance, typical scenario whenever "All" is in the title, and the worst when it's in the very first word.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#159

The work is very interesting. The title is misleading. A better title would be: "all of human ingredients compressed into 1,800 primitives" There is little to substantively nothing about the actual cooking: preparation methods, proportions, etc. But the idea that tomato goes well with beef the whole world over is very interesting and useful for creating flavors that will go together, perhaps surprisingly. It will be…

I have a wonderful book that explores this idea of an atlas of flavours that work together. The flavor bible. I can assure you that it does not contain 1800 ingredients in all of there combinations, but it does a remarkable job of covering a widely used selection of herbs spices vegetables and meats. I doubt a compressed version of the text would even be very large. The trouble I find with LLM generated recipes is th…

Being able to wade through the bullshit is a valuable skill, and the worse your cooking is the less valuable an LLM will be. That said, prompting matters. Something like the following, chased with any necessary questions to ground the details at your skill level, is likely to get you an above-average result. Better cooking skills allow you to ask better follow-on questions, or (context windows matter) create new sessions probing other things you care about.

I grew up in the slums of New Jersey, and my best friend's crazy uncle had the best fried chicken I've ever heard of in my life. I've eaten the best $10k omakase you can find and other amazing food the world over, and I can't even begin to describe what sets his chicken apart from literally every other food. How did he work that magic? You've been accoladed for your work uncovering the best, most unique flavors our civilization has to offer. Can you recreate that trip to heaven?

Some generic follow-on questions (in line with the trope of "now make it better") include:

1. That's all well and good, but I'm an experienced chef, and I know all of those elementary basics. Something is still missing. What made that meal the best in the world?

2. Pick something the LLM said, and focus on that as if it successfully caught on to an important detail (e.g., in-context, IME you'd want to latch on to anything the LLM offered regarding buttermilk or fermentation).

3. Take whatever you learned and start the fuck over. Use another context window to brainstorm a different, more appropriate persona if you can't come up with one on your own (the choice of New Jersey wasn't especially important -- just a concrete detail likely to elucidate ideas you won't see otherwise), and ask again in another session with a better persona and incorporating whatever you've learned and any inspiration you've taken.

4. The initial question was a little open-ended. Ask the LLM to expand its results into 2-3 concrete, orthogonal directions capable of generating those experiences, fleshing out the details into full recipes.

5. I'm sure the secret wasn't just the chicken. Drinks, sauces, music, and everything else played into it. How did he make that feel alive?

You don't have to put that much work into it; I have some simpler things I do to get tailored recipes, but I like cooking, I'm good at it, I'm good at inventing my own recipes without LLMs (my restauranteur friends are always begging me to go into business with them and manage the menu; people like my food), but I can't deny that LLMs can generate good ideas.

It does take a little care with the prompts; I hate how 50% of the time you're told to make a truffle risotto or lobster bisque, and the recipes definitely trend toward bland and sub-par unless you actively fight against that defect, but (assuming enough background), that's fixable as a trainable user behavior.

Re: All of human cooking compressed into 2 megabytes

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a wonderful book that explores this idea of an atlas of flavours that work together. The flavor bible. I can assure you that it does not contain 1800 ingredients in all of there combinations, but it does a remarkable job of covering a widely used selection of herbs spices vegetables and meats. I doubt a compressed version of the text would even be very large. The trouble I find with LLM generated recipes is th…

Ruhlsman's "Ratio" is also quite good at distilling the mechanics of food into an algorithm of sorts. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Ratio/Michael-Ruhlman...

Preview[1] available on Google Books.

[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ratio/yXwYoXmYTD4C

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