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IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

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Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#151

Post by bluGill »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #141
bluGill wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IF they design it to work that way it can. Do you trust the manufacture to do that though? This is not only do they need to design it that way, but also that they need to ensure it works in all the edge cases. I've been in software long enough to know there are a lot of weird edge cases nobody thinks of that are then missed for years.

If you toggle or otherwise manually manipulate a light switch, surely it is physically disconnecting the circuits? I don't see how that mechanism could ever not work, absent mechanical issues.

A smart switch cannot be a toggle. It needs a relay of some sort so that it can be controlled by software. There is a switch you control, then something, then the relay. That something needs to work.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#152

Post by umbra07 »

bevr1337 wrote: post #127
alsko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matter was created by the Connectivity Standards Alliance (CSA), formerly known as the Zigbee Alliance! Basically, Matter is the next generation Zigbee. Thread as a protocol predates Matter, and it is just one of the supported transports, together with Wifi and Ethernet (for now). Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network w…

> Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network without QR codes or numbers to type in. What follows are my two pennies as a developer working in home automation for 7 years. In this venue, readers may even have more knowledge regarding security, but I hope to speak to a common case. I develop this exact feature though not for…

on the other hand - I had contractors install our Nanoleaf recessed light cans (thread over matter) in our new house. In all the hubbub, I forgot to make sure to save the light cans boxes that had the QR codes inside. I found around half the QR code stickers, but I lost the other half. The light cans also have the QR codes printed on the top, but we have nailed-down attic flooring that covers them completely. So I'm basically just praying that Nanoleaf's CS can give me the pairing codes based on my order number, haha.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#153

Post by umbra07 »

amluto wrote: post #55
nick__m wrote: post #8

I don't understand the problem that thread solves that zigbee doesn't! The article says that thread doesn't require a hub but it require a border gateway that is almost indistinguishable from a hub. And as far as my home assistant setup is concerned, it doesn't require a hub, only a zigbee radio. The only thing that seems to advantage thread is manufacturers support, but I don't see what's stopped them to regroup aro…

As I understand it, Thread can transparently extend its mesh over regular IPv6 (Ethernet, Wi-Fi, etc), whereas extending a Zigbee (or Z-Wave) mesh beyond useful mesh range is a mess. I have a Z-Wave network that uses two controllers, and it sucks . It’s utterly obnoxious to maintain, the whole concept of multiple controllers is barely supported by zwave-js-ui, it is far to dumb to recover quickly on its own if it tra…

I believe this is what thread v1.4 is attempting to solve. Apple has already updated their Thread border routers to v1.4, and Google, Amazon, and Samsung have all promised to update their border routers too.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#154

Post by nagisa »

bluGill wrote: post #138
madwolf wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just need a Thread border router and Matter devices connect to your HA without problems. I use Apple TV as a border router.

That is my sticking point - every border router I can find has a bunch of other things I don't want. I don't want my lights available from the internet, I just want to turn on the shed outside light from inside the house when I have guests. (since they are likely to park by the shed and walk to the house) That is I don't want google/amazon/samsung/apple to control my house. Most border routers are also connect to our…

While not a proper product, you can buy a small ESP32C6 devboard for up-to-5 USD/EUR and flash an example from esp-idf. This is paired with some software that runs on posix systems (think your HA host) that together form the necessary commissioning and border routing functionality. Its ends up being a relatively simple device that just takes IP packets off the radio and puts then somewhere else, so I've no doubt somebody will shortly make one (I've been working on one such for myself as an experiment.)

For what you're looking to do in principle you don't really need any of this after the initial commissioning. So long as the radio waves can reach the devices they will be able to talk to each other.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#155

Post by arghwhat »

wkat4242 wrote: post #53
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

Yeah and matter needs internet access in many cases. It was supposed to be the saviour of open home automation. But in practice it leaves too many strings attached that the manufacturer can take advantage of. And despite it not being open enough for open source enthusiasts, it's also got a bad name with manufacturers. I work for one and I asked why we wouldn't implement matter and thread and it was laughed off becaus…

Matter doesn't need internet access, it's an entirely local protocol even when you integrate to other vendor ecosystems.

Now, something like Google Home might decide to go online to talk to a Google Home Hub device, which is where Google wants to initiate all Matter communication from, but that's a Google thing, not a Matter thing.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#156

Post by CharlesW »

philjohn wrote: post #119
CharlesW wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty straightforward: Z-Wave is a closed (one company owns and controls the tech and brand) hub-bound mesh, and really should've been displaced by an open solution long ago. Matter is an industry-standard IPv6-based application layer that works over Thread (the successor to ZigBee) and Wi-Fi.

Yes - but it does feel over-engineered in some places (for good reason, having device profiles that everyone adheres to makes supporting a new device of a given class a doddle for smart home platforms) and it is definitely more finicky at present to pair devices than with Zigbee. If I had to wipe and re-setup my smart home with 100 Zigbee devices and 18 Matter over Thread devices (Tado smart thermostat and TRV's) the…

> If I had to wipe and re-setup my smart home with 100 Zigbee devices…

FWIW, this is purely an HA issue, not a Matter one. Once HA includes the Matter credential store in backups/restores, the experience will be the same.

Out of curiosity, what is the reason you find yourself completely wiping and re-pairing all of your Z-Wave devices?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#157

Post by umbra07 »

madwolf wrote: post #66
api wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t this the history of home automation? The money is in getting people locked into a “system,” but the systems are things that tend to rapidly become dated. So people will invest in a system and either get disillusioned due to the downside of lock in or the system goes obsolete and the newer stuff is not compatible because it’s a whole new system. Rinse, repeat. There have been many attempts at industry standards…

I mean... I have an Aqara Matter over Thread smart lock that connects via AppleTV (which is a Thread border router) to Home Assistant. And I can control the lock both with HA and Apple HomeKit. And this whole thing works flawlessly. Aqara, Apple, open source HA. Never thought this would be so smooth. I think the whole point of Matter is that the devices are manufacturer independent and you can use any device with any…

I have an Aqara Thread over Matter smart lock too. The only thing I can do with it via Home Assistant is remote unlock/lock and get the battery %. I can't do user management or the million other features that require me to use the Aqara app.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#158

Post by arghwhat »

devnullbrain wrote: post #90
olalonde wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incorrect. Matter is an open standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard)

>the ability to commission a finished product into a Matter network in the field mandates certification and membership fees,[15][16] entailing both one-time, recurring, and per-product costs.[17] This is enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and so-called device attestation certificates.[15] Thank you for the clarification?

To be clear, this is the same organization that developed Zigbee, which requires paid certification - without, you're not allowed to say the product supports Zigbee or to use the Zigbee logo.

You can connect devices without this, it just shows a warning during commissioning that the device is not certified. No impact whatsoever.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#159

Post by ajolly »

op00to wrote: post #128
delusional wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certain manufacturer devices being flaky, yes, but as a platform This makes me a little weary of your comment. I don't think I'd really care if my lights not working was due to a "manufacturer being flaky" if they worked yesterday, but don't today. Are you talking about devices being flaky on first setup (which sucks, but is understandable), or are you talking about them being flaky after an update?

I think one solid way of handling the instability is to use high quality light automation (Lutron Caseta, for example) for the things you'll really notice, but for stuff you care less about (for me that's cameras, temperature sensors) you can use cheaper ZWave stuff w/ home assistant. The lights turn on and off when I expect, but temperature might update a little less frequently if HA is flaky.

Long tail can be flaky, but in practice as long as you buy devices that are local first IE don't need to access the cloud you'll be fine.

(For temp and humidity sensors the Bluetooth Xiaomi sensors are great and they're about $5 each)

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#160

Post by bevr1337 »

umbra07 wrote: post #152
bevr1337 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network without QR codes or numbers to type in. What follows are my two pennies as a developer working in home automation for 7 years. In this venue, readers may even have more knowledge regarding security, but I hope to speak to a common case. I develop this exact feature though not for…

on the other hand - I had contractors install our Nanoleaf recessed light cans (thread over matter) in our new house. In all the hubbub, I forgot to make sure to save the light cans boxes that had the QR codes inside. I found around half the QR code stickers, but I lost the other half. The light cans also have the QR codes printed on the top, but we have nailed-down attic flooring that covers them completely. So I'm…

Oof, yes that's certainly a way QR codes can go wrong. Ideally manufacturers print the QR code on the device such that it lasts the device's lifetime.

It would be nice if technical users (installers) could reset the certificates or keys too. Besides losing the QR code, secondhand owners also want some assurances.

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