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A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

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Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have serious trouble believing that "the market" would have led to Citi keeping larger amounts of reserve capital around. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it was the banks pressuring the government to let them hold less in reserve. I am registered Libertarian, as I believe in marketizing problems whenever possible; however, the markets must be set up correctly to be truly free, and only the government can do that.

True, but have you ever been driving on an icy road and seen people going the speed limit, 55 miles per hour? The psychology people seem to have is to believe that if the government regulates it, then anything that falls under the regulation requires no independent thought. On the icy road, the safe speed maximum is probably about 30 mph, but many accidents are caused by people going the posted limit, as people seem…

> The psychology people seem to have is to believe that if the government regulates it, then anything that falls under the regulation requires no independent thought.

But according to your own line of thought, shouldn't people be fully responsible for their own conduct, regardless of the surrounding circumstances? If so, how is lack of governement regulation going to help people determine the correct speed to go at on icy roads?

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#152
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting example but I think it's not very really helpful in understanding Libertarianism. First let me answer your question directly: in this example, Libland is undoubtedly screwed because Xia has a monopoly on the food supply. The people of Libland would not be able to cope with this situation and they'd most likely be overrun. Sure, there will be pockets or resistance with guerrillas doggedly fighti…

the example isn't helpful because of [...] 1) The unexplained reason why Xia can produce food so cheaply. No explanation is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_advantage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

Well, I think an explanation in real-world terms is needed, not theoretical definitions. For example:

1) Does Xia have better climatic conditions? If so, why wouldn't neighbouring countries have similar conditions to become a viable competitor?

2) Do the have better packing and transportation technology? If so, why can't another country develop/buy/steal the technology?

3) Etc, etc.

Hence, my point is that the imposed constraints may not normally exist.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why libertarians seem to discount external costs Most libertarians are aware that the Government meddles heavily in the economy, and everything bad about the economy that's blamed on capitalism wasn't a fair test b/c it wasn't actually laissez faire capitalism that was tested. There is no good reason to expect external cost problem to be worse under a genuinely free market than they are now. S…

>Most libertarians are aware that the Government meddles >heavily in the economy, and everything bad about the economy >that's blamed on capitalism wasn't a fair test b/c it wasn't >actually laissez faire capitalism that was tested. Isn't that what the defenders of communism say about the USSR and China? (Stalinim and Maoism respectively, rather than pure Communism as Marx et al. intended) The point being that 'pure'…

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Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why libertarians seem to discount external costs Most libertarians are aware that the Government meddles heavily in the economy, and everything bad about the economy that's blamed on capitalism wasn't a fair test b/c it wasn't actually laissez faire capitalism that was tested. There is no good reason to expect external cost problem to be worse under a genuinely free market than they are now. S…

Capitalism and human nature tell us that lobbying and corruption will be a consequence of regulation. Libertarians simply realize that regulations are not just the "grand vision" that they are presented as... they create winners and losers, beneficiaries and those who are made worse off. As such libertarians constantly re-evaluate how effectively regulations accomplish the grand vision in the environment of the perve…

> Why are you critical of libertarianism?

I'm a bit confused. The post you've replied to was in favor of libertarianism.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#155
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example that is often cited is the so-called "deregulation" of energy markets. There was not actually deregulation. The markets were still highly regulated, so the act of deregulating part of them threw the whole system out of whack and everyone wanted to reinstate regulation.

So a deregulation failing proved libertarianism right? Libertarianism is like prayer. If it works, the religion is right. If it doesn't, you did something wrong and it's right.

Take the passage of Prop 8 in California -- libertarians do not think that marriage should be something that the state meddles in at all.

Examples abound. I just mentioned one deregulation example because such things are often touted as libertarian accomplishments when in fact markets are often still highly regulated and the deregulation was just a handout to one interest or another.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism and human nature tell us that lobbying and corruption will be a consequence of regulation. Libertarians simply realize that regulations are not just the "grand vision" that they are presented as... they create winners and losers, beneficiaries and those who are made worse off. As such libertarians constantly re-evaluate how effectively regulations accomplish the grand vision in the environment of the perve…

> Why are you critical of libertarianism? I'm a bit confused. The post you've replied to was in favor of libertarianism.

I may have inadvertantly replied to the wrong post...

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but have you ever been driving on an icy road and seen people going the speed limit, 55 miles per hour? The psychology people seem to have is to believe that if the government regulates it, then anything that falls under the regulation requires no independent thought. On the icy road, the safe speed maximum is probably about 30 mph, but many accidents are caused by people going the posted limit, as people seem…

> The psychology people seem to have is to believe that if the government regulates it, then anything that falls under the regulation requires no independent thought. But according to your own line of thought, shouldn't people be fully responsible for their own conduct, regardless of the surrounding circumstances? If so, how is lack of governement regulation going to help people determine the correct speed to go at o…

My point is just that a rational person generally uses his/her cognitive faculties to assess risk, but that regulation often leads to short-circuiting of critical thought.

The heuristic becomes one of people believing that the government must have already looked out for all dangerous possibilities, so anything that is legal is safe.

I don't feel the need to look down my nose and say "people should be individually responsible" because I don't consider that productive. I think people are naturally responsible enough to look out for their own interests, unless they are misled.

One example: investors in Madoff's hedge fund were misled by the SEC stamp of approval on that fund. Don't you think that normal scepticism about the returns ought to have led to some scrutiny?

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you offer any evidence to support your point. I'd argue the opposite, that a big, opaque regulatory state is the perfect environment for corruption.

I think you mistook my comment as an argument against Libertarianism - it was not intended to be such. My point was that people oversimplify both the implementation and the analysis of Libertarian principles. A system with many, many free actors can be amazingly complex, and what I'm suggesting is that for people to see the value of the system they need to recognize and embrace that complexity. For example, the basic…

Excellent point. You're right, a basic humility about the human ability to understand and control complicated systems is at the root of libertarian principles.

I think it's somewhat absurd that Obama and Bush even pretend they can do anything about the financial crisis.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. In an environment where the government decides what is prudent, there is no incentive for a bank to say "We are sounder than our competitors because we keep more reserves". Why not? Because they would be competing against the government for their definition of soundness. Sure it could happen theoretically, but it would be a tremendous competitive disadvantage. The way it is today, any bank that is legally…

> First, note that if it weren't for regulators deciding on the amount of reserve capital Citibank was required to hold, the market would probably have demanded that it hold much more. This was your original point. Let's stay on track. Your claim that regulators decide how big Citibank's reserves should be is false. They set a minimum, not a maximum. You then tried to draw an analogy between speeding and regulation,…

I don't think you have refuted my speeding analogy. Do you ever drive in an area with ice on the roads? I recommend that you observe the phenomenon before you dismiss it.

I do not think you have refuted my claim that regulation leads to people suspending critical judgement about risks.

Reserve requirements are a good example of this effect. Industry lobbyists try very hard to have the limit decreased while benefiting from the public perception that the regulator has assured that the bank's assets are sound.

If you don't buy my argument then you probably believe that people are so stupid that without regulation banks would hold $0 in reserves.

The alternative view of humanity is that people are sensible enough to demand sound practices from institutions they deal with on important matters.

My argument is that banks don't use reserves as a way to win customers the way they would if regulators weren't giving an A+ to every bank that holds the minimum :)

One exception is Goldman Sachs. It did not need TARP funds to remain solvent. Yet Treasury forced all banks to accept the funds. What did Goldman do? It immediately paid a huge dividend to its investors.

What happened? Goldman actually had more sound practices than the rest of the industry and was not in danger of failing. It would probably have waited for bankruptcy proceedings and picked through the assets of the other banks, strengthening its already strong balance sheet.

Regulators did not want more money to flow to the firm that had good practices, so it insisted on bailing everyone out. This was to hide information from investors and customers. Goldman angered regulators by paying out the dividend right away, but managed to signal its health.

To understand the point of libertarians on this issue, consider the world in 10 years from today. We might have had a world where chastened investors and customers looked a lot more carefully at the risk management practices of banks before trusting them. Instead, we have a world in which our government owns 30% of all banks and regulators are being hailed as the saviors of the banking industry.

Do you want to live in a world where people act based on reality, or one where taxpayer money is appropriated without congressional approval and given to selected industries, and the appropriators are hailed as heroes that helped the little guy keep his job, prevented another great depression, etc.

It all comes back to the burden that people take upon themselves to assess the riskiness of the decisions they make. Industry loves to have its status quo practices rubber stamped by regulators, to add additional credibility. It all works out well as long as there can be another bailout, etc., but it's not based on reality and represents the slow transfer of wealth from the most productive companies to the ones with the most effective lobbying.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#160
post #130
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might be food insurance companies. They would have advertisements telling people of a probable military intervention by Xia and recommend people to buy food insurance in order to be safe. Regarding your second point: The realization that Xia might attack will probably not come suddenly but slowly. So people will gradually begin investing in food insurance. It's unlikely that Xia turns from friend to enemy in a…

The realization that Xia might attack will probably not come suddenly but slowly Just like 9-11, Dec 7, 1941, the anschluss, mongol invasions...the Hitties and Philistines versus the Israelites, yeah, military ops are always telegraphed.

"In 1993, Ramzi Yousef used a truck bomb to attack the World Trade Center in New York City" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#1993_World_Trade_Cente...

"War between Japan and the United States had been a possibility each nation had been aware of (and developed contingency plans for) since the 1920s" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Backgrou...

"Austria was merged into Nazi Germany on 12 March 1938. There had been several years of pressure from Germany and there were many supporters within Austria for the "Heim ins Reich"-movement, both Nazis and non-Nazis." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss

Your less specific in the details of your other facts so it's hard to get specific counter-facts on them.

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