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A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

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Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most libertarians I know today aren't so keen on things like pigovian taxes to correct differences between marginal social cost and marginal private cost. Which is weird! I've never understood why libertarians seem to discount external costs so deeply. I think there is a breed of libertarian that values them sanely, but that it's the less rabid sort that tends not to rant on the internet. I'd include Friedman and M…

> I've never understood why libertarians seem to discount external costs Most libertarians are aware that the Government meddles heavily in the economy, and everything bad about the economy that's blamed on capitalism wasn't a fair test b/c it wasn't actually laissez faire capitalism that was tested. There is no good reason to expect external cost problem to be worse under a genuinely free market than they are now. S…

Capitalism and human nature tell us that lobbying and corruption will be a consequence of regulation. Libertarians simply realize that regulations are not just the "grand vision" that they are presented as... they create winners and losers, beneficiaries and those who are made worse off. As such libertarians constantly re-evaluate how effectively regulations accomplish the grand vision in the environment of the perverse incentives that are often created and grow over time.

At a very basic level this is simply a scientific, non-political world view. It's evidence-based. If you read through many of the threads on HN you can feel the deep sentimentality that people feel about things like Social Security, etc. It's an emotional, irrational, unscientific response.

Why are you critical of libertarianism? Do you support some special interest group that stands to lose simply from smaller government? Or are you sentimentally attached to the grand vision presented as the persuasive argument for some piece of historical regulation? Or are you a career burocrat :)

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a more important point that I think most people realize. The classic "flaw" in Libertarian thinking (both among self-described Libertarians and those who criticize it) is neglecting higher-order effects. The prisoner's dilemma is a perfect example of this. The game played once is very different from the game played repeatedly. You'll find the same sort of differences in numerous other game-theoretic situation…

I don't think you offer any evidence to support your point. I'd argue the opposite, that a big, opaque regulatory state is the perfect environment for corruption.

I think you mistook my comment as an argument against Libertarianism - it was not intended to be such. My point was that people oversimplify both the implementation and the analysis of Libertarian principles. A system with many, many free actors can be amazingly complex, and what I'm suggesting is that for people to see the value of the system they need to recognize and embrace that complexity.

For example, the basic principles of a free market (e.g., supply and demand) are easy to state but result in complex transactions. When things don't "work out" for someone in the real work and they raise an argument against "free markets" (as in the current housing bubble), we need to be ready to point out all the complex ways that the free market worked correctly but where the non-free parts distorted it (government policies encouraging loans to unqualified applicants).

In complex systems with non-linear behavior, we need to be very careful that we understand the full context of an event or we won’t be able to extrapolate the results. That’s why first-order approximations fail so often in mathematics and in real life.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#143
post #70

Can you find any examples where libertarianism has failed, instead of saying that people have failed libertarianism? If not, it's a religion rather than a political philosophy.

One example that is often cited is the so-called "deregulation" of energy markets.

There was not actually deregulation. The markets were still highly regulated, so the act of deregulating part of them threw the whole system out of whack and everyone wanted to reinstate regulation.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#144

"Zed's argument was essentially this" grandalf, I think you missed one of Zed's main points. Here's a more entertaining, less rambling, version from Belle Waring: http://examinedlife.typepad.com/johnbelle/2004/03/if_wishes_... In the real world there are large, extemely powerful, centralized power structures. And they don't plan to go away, only to become more powerful. If your libertarian politics doesn't include an…

I consider the government one of those "large, centralized power structures". It has its pluses and minuses. At present I pay it thousands of dollars every month to help fund a massive war in the middle east and an enormous bailout of Wall Street and Detroit. If I stop doing this I will be put in prison.

Dow Chemical is one other such organization, as is General Motors, as is Google, as is Canada, etc.

Why do you presuppose that it is necessary to diminish the power of some of these organizations?

I would argue that one of the main reasons that corporate interests become "large, centralized power structures" is because they are able to manipulate government regulation to their advantage.

There was a Stanford Entrepreneurial Thought Leaders talk where one guy said how much he loves starting companies in heavily regulated industries -- because there is such a high barrier to entry that once you do the extensive paperwork and legwork and politicking get approved there is very little competition.

The real "sweet spot" for firms is to be in a heavily regulated AND heavily protected industry (aka too big to fail). The military industrial complex is one such example, as is the financial services industry (as of the past few months) and also now the US automotive industry.

So rather than viewing the world as one in which government protects me from these entities, I view it as one where these entities conspire to prevent revolutionary innovations from threatening their dominance.

Further evidence that countries do this is the big trend toward treaties to prevent "tax competition" between countries. France doesn't want Poland luring companies in with low corporate taxes, etc. This is blatant collusion. Why are state taxes typically lower than Federal? Not because state regulators aspire to less grand programs than Fedreal ones do, but because it's easy to move to a different state, not so easy to move to a different country.

Consider how many businesses spend more money on a presence in Washington DC than they do on innovation. Google learned from Microsoft's mistake and now has an active office in DC trying to build influence -- and with Schmidt's appointment has the ultimate influence in the new administration.

To maintain its status as legitimate, one of these entities, government, must constantly reinforce its own story through pageantry and pomp. Did you know that George W. Bush conducted more ceremonies than any other president?

We're supposed to believe that all other "powerful, centralized power structures" are evil (various companies, Saddam's Iraq, Castro's Cuba) and that the only hope lies in unquestioning, unthinking loyalty to the US government. We're taught to see all regulation only as the "grand vision" associated with it, not as a law that creates incentives, winners, and losers. We're taught to fear and to trust. We're given black and white messages like "good and evil", etc.

I just refuse to believe this. I live in a country where "The Patriot Act" takes away rights and where the financial services industry -- for quite a while the biggest industry donor to both major parties -- gets a massive bailout from the Treasury department. We live in a place where eating according to the USDA food pyramid will lead to heart disease while benefiting the dairy and beef and corn industries.

Why do I not just think we should strive to improve regulations against "evil corporations"? I think people are capable of processing information and using basic cognition. In many cases, such as the SEC, regulations only lead to a false sense of security. Isn't it a bit crazy that in the same period that Madoff's firm conducted the biggest scam ever, the SEC was warned of this by multiple parties and instead chose to shut down prosper.com on a technicality?

I'm not anti-government, but I would like to see more competition -- in the form of more being handled at the state level so that we can see the effects of multiple approaches to solving the same problem, as well as move to a different state if we find its regulatory environment preferable.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#145
post #70

Can you find any examples where libertarianism has failed, instead of saying that people have failed libertarianism? If not, it's a religion rather than a political philosophy.

One example that is often cited is the so-called "deregulation" of energy markets. There was not actually deregulation. The markets were still highly regulated, so the act of deregulating part of them threw the whole system out of whack and everyone wanted to reinstate regulation.

More on this, here:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf65.html

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#146
post #29

Can somebody who understands Libertarianism help me with the following thought experiment? Suppose Libland is a libertarian state. The occupants of Libland stay alive by eating Food. Xia is another state. For whatever reason, they don't like Libland, and for whatever reason, they can produce Food much more cheaply than Libland. Xia starts flooding the Libland market with cheap Food, so that it's is uneconomic for any…

This is an interesting example but I think it's not very really helpful in understanding Libertarianism.

First let me answer your question directly: in this example, Libland is undoubtedly screwed because Xia has a monopoly on the food supply. The people of Libland would not be able to cope with this situation and they'd most likely be overrun. Sure, there will be pockets or resistance with guerrillas doggedly fighting on for years or decades, but as a state, Libland would no longer exist.

Nevertheless, I think that the example isn't helpful because of two positions:

1) The unexplained reason why Xia can produce food so cheaply. 2) That it would be uneconomical for anyone other than Xia to produce food.

In the real-world, there would be a competitor for Xia to supply food. Even if Xia started off as the only supplier, someone would realise that they could enter the market supplying food that's a little cheaper, higher quality or just a little more different. The people of Libland, knowing the dangers of relying on only one source, would then also start purchasing from the competitor _in_addition_ to Xia.

I therefore think that your hypothetical scenario wouldn't exist outside of the 'thought laboratory'.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#147
post #146
post #29

Can somebody who understands Libertarianism help me with the following thought experiment? Suppose Libland is a libertarian state. The occupants of Libland stay alive by eating Food. Xia is another state. For whatever reason, they don't like Libland, and for whatever reason, they can produce Food much more cheaply than Libland. Xia starts flooding the Libland market with cheap Food, so that it's is uneconomic for any…

This is an interesting example but I think it's not very really helpful in understanding Libertarianism. First let me answer your question directly: in this example, Libland is undoubtedly screwed because Xia has a monopoly on the food supply. The people of Libland would not be able to cope with this situation and they'd most likely be overrun. Sure, there will be pockets or resistance with guerrillas doggedly fighti…

the example isn't helpful because of [...] 1) The unexplained reason why Xia can produce food so cheaply.

No explanation is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_advantage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#148
post #70

Can you find any examples where libertarianism has failed, instead of saying that people have failed libertarianism? If not, it's a religion rather than a political philosophy.

One example that is often cited is the so-called "deregulation" of energy markets. There was not actually deregulation. The markets were still highly regulated, so the act of deregulating part of them threw the whole system out of whack and everyone wanted to reinstate regulation.

So a deregulation failing proved libertarianism right?

Libertarianism is like prayer. If it works, the religion is right. If it doesn't, you did something wrong and it's right.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear: you are suggesting that banks have kept low reserves because they took their government requirements as a sign of what was prudent to lend. Rather than asking their many teams of risk analysts, they made lending decisions based on an arbitrary number set by the government, despite the fact that this level has not been raised or lowered in decades, is uniform across all banks, takes no heed of the current…

Not at all. In an environment where the government decides what is prudent, there is no incentive for a bank to say "We are sounder than our competitors because we keep more reserves". Why not? Because they would be competing against the government for their definition of soundness. Sure it could happen theoretically, but it would be a tremendous competitive disadvantage. The way it is today, any bank that is legally…

> First, note that if it weren't for regulators deciding on the amount of reserve capital Citibank was required to hold, the market would probably have demanded that it hold much more.

This was your original point. Let's stay on track.

Your claim that regulators decide how big Citibank's reserves should be is false. They set a minimum, not a maximum.

You then tried to draw an analogy between speeding and regulation, one that, as I have explained, is totally inappropriate.

You then claimed that "most people take the fact that a firm is regulated to mean that it's totally safe", which is a massive exaggeration. If that were true, bank bonds would be considered as safe as government bonds and bank runs would never happen. All other regulated industries would be exactly the same. Also, you are confusing reserve requirements with broader regulation as a whole.

You then claim that banks raising their reserves would be "competing against the government for their definition of soundness", despite the fact that no government has ever claimed any 'definition of soundness'. This appears to be something that you have invented.

You then give an argument as to why other forms of regulation encourage banks to hold lower reserves. This contradicts your original point, which was that if reserve requirements were abolished then the market would force banks to raise reserves. What you have demonstrated is that the market, bail-outs and broader regulation would actually force reserves to even lower levels in the absence of reserve requirements. You have changed your argument from one about reserve requirements to one about broader regulation, and bail-outs such as TARP.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most libertarians I know today aren't so keen on things like pigovian taxes to correct differences between marginal social cost and marginal private cost. Which is weird! I've never understood why libertarians seem to discount external costs so deeply. I think there is a breed of libertarian that values them sanely, but that it's the less rabid sort that tends not to rant on the internet. I'd include Friedman and M…

> I've never understood why libertarians seem to discount external costs Most libertarians are aware that the Government meddles heavily in the economy, and everything bad about the economy that's blamed on capitalism wasn't a fair test b/c it wasn't actually laissez faire capitalism that was tested. There is no good reason to expect external cost problem to be worse under a genuinely free market than they are now. S…

>Most libertarians are aware that the Government meddles >heavily in the economy, and everything bad about the economy >that's blamed on capitalism wasn't a fair test b/c it wasn't >actually laissez faire capitalism that was tested.

Isn't that what the defenders of communism say about the USSR and China? (Stalinim and Maoism respectively, rather than pure Communism as Marx et al. intended)

The point being that 'pure' libertarianism is possibly just as realistic as pure communism, or perhaps even democracy (either in the sense of 'pure' (i.e. direct) democracy at a national level, or even, with representative systems, that the majority of the population is well informed regarding issues at hand and actively participates in the democratic process).

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