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Is English a “creole Language”?

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu

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Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#151
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect to past tense, a "common" thing in english appears to be that the imperfect of a verb is the same word as the past particilpe of that verb. So "played" can be the imperfect tense itself, or the participle of perfect tense in "have played". In German, this doesn't happen. Imperfect tense is often formed by using a "-te" ending to the verb (so "spiel(en)" -> "spielte"), while the past participle prepends "…

German does not have this feature! In German, there is no difference in meaning between "Ich spielte Tennis" and "Ich habe Tennis gespielt". (The difference is in register, "Ich spielte Tennis" is more formal.) In English, in contrast, there is a clear difference in usage between, say, "I was playing tennis while my kids were in school", and "I have played tennis while my kids were in school".

I defer to you for that, simply because I'm a native speaker of German and "only" long-term fluid in English. I don't entirely grasp the difference between the two - other than "phrasing" (and on that level it exists in both), and would be likely to use them interchangeably. In both German and English.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#152
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time I was walking with a friend around Amsterdam and a man walked up to me and asked me where something was (a nearby restaurant), I answered in English with directions and he thanked me, then a moment later this exchange happened: - Wait! You can speak Netherlands? - No. Sorry. - But you can! I am speaking it! - No you're not! You're speaking English! He just blinked and walked off, probably assuming I…

This is a fascinating phenomenon that I've encountered before. It seems that some multilingual people cannot easily tell which language they are speaking and/or switch languages during conversation. A friend who is learning Dutch once complained to me that Dutch speakers will switch to English the moment they hear you are struggling with the language. I suggested she should explicitly ask people to keep the conversat…

I tend to switch to the language hinted at by the accent of the person I'm speaking to. And I only notice which language I speak when I can't find a word. The question then becomes whether I can substitute the word from another language familiar to the recipients.

In bilingual places you'll see people switching mid-sentence when they have a better expression in the other language for what they are about to say.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#153
We know that human populations have been mixing throughout history, including with species that no longer exist.

We (Homo Sapiens) have genetic adaptations for speech, so it seems likely (but unproven AFAIK), that some Ur proto sound communication immediately fractured on migration, with isolated groups diverging rapidly, such that languages were not mutually comprehensible. Languages are cultural, so mutate much faster than genes. It seems unlikely that genetic adaptations for speech could evolve independently in different populations of our species.

So my expectation is that all languages could be described as creoles, and only the length of isolation since last contact and exchange is in question.

Some might call this purity, but it should not be called that, because it hitches a ride to genetic purity, and we know where that leads. Also pure does not mean best. It just means most unchanged, which often means less successful and more brittle. Creoles are antifragile.

It is often the case that creoles are more useful (successful) than pure languages. Creoles occur at points of contact, trade, exchange, invasion, colonization, enslavement, expansion and diffusion. Development and populations tend to benefit in those situations, so creoles are probably more likely to be useful and survive.

English is not the simplest language. It is certainly a mongrel, if not an academically verified creole. English does not have a standard. Famously, the first serious and comprehensive modern dictionary (OED) documented actual usage, not imagined correctness.

By contrast, French, and most European languages, have a state-sponsored Academy to rule how the language should be used [1]. Central planning never works. English has evolved through many epochs of tribal conflict, invasion, conquest, colonization, trade, economic success, diasporas, intellectual influence, literature and modern media.

Ironically, it is more of a lingua franca than French. Notice how English beautifully and flexibly adopts a foreign phrase for a foreign pidgin trade language, which did not include English :)

Many distant historical languages only survived by fervent religious preservation, rather than practical usefulness. Vernaculars diverged, as expected. Latin and Sanskrit come to mind. Priests self-perpetuated their influence, by ensuring they were the only people educated in an obscure dead language, who could read and interpret holy books. A nice rent-seeking grift if you can keep it going for 2,000 years (Catholic church; 500 years earlier for Protestants).

So the more interesting question does not involve the word creole, but instead asks: what are the current languages with the longest period of isolation?

[1] Not coincidentally, the law is the same. English Common Law says you can do anything reasonable, until someone complains, then judges resolve the case, and it becomes a precedent in the common law. But the French have a top-down Napoleonic Code, which tries to describe everything that's forbidden. Needless to say, thanks to the war-mongering megalomaniac Little Corsican, most of Europe has the same legal framework (and also drive on the right, because of Napoleon+Hitler - a remarkable double-punch combination).

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#154
It fascinates me how linguistics is completely enmeshed in human identity in a such a way that it is impossible to categorize languages without tackling some thorny questions. All the topics you aren't supposed to discuss in polite company (religion, political affiliation, and race) become unavoidable when trying to figure out the relationship of Serbian to Croatian, what is a creole vs. a pidgin, and the relationship of Yiddish and Ladino to medieval German and Spanish (respectively). Fun stuff.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#155
post #2

Creole is both a sociohistoric and linguistic term. The fact that the linguistic attributes are difficult to put boundaries on is extremely common for linguists: we won’t even claim to tell you what the definition of “word” is! As for whether English is a Creole, it’s important to understand the motivation for Creolistics at its origin. It started, and continues, as an effort to legitimize a set of languages that bef…

I don't understand this comment. It makes absolutely no claims about the definition of a creole, and it makes no claims about how English doesn't conform to that definition. It just talks about "squinting" at languages, mentions black Americans for no particular reason, and accuses anyone who would argue that English is a creole of being "disingenuous" for trying to reverse the "legitimazation." It's like the perfect…

> I don't understand this comment. It makes absolutely no claims about the definition of a creole, and it makes no claims about how English doesn't conform to that definition. It just talks about "squinting" at languages, mentions black Americans for no particular reason, and accuses anyone who would argue that English is a creole of being "disingenuous" for trying to reverse the "legitimazation."

> It's like the perfect troll comment. Makes no argument, implies anyone who would disagree is probably racist, and uses black Americans as a comparison for no particular reason.*

I don't think you're engaging with the author's point: it is _precisely_ that the study of Creole languages wasn't a top-down predetermined "this is the definition of something, and we're studying it" program, but arose after the fact to label the work of a school of linguistics.

> Is your argument that considering English a creole lets English people off the hook for something?

> If I'm missing your point, what was it?

The point is that the author assumes that concepts arise by labelling the results of historical processes, but ultimately our goal is to describe a historical process.

It's not warranted to jump to speculating about "western rhetoric" or "modern argument", which doesn't substantially engage with the OP. Nor is it warranted to speculate that the author "implies anyone who would disagree is probably racist".

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#156
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this comment. It makes absolutely no claims about the definition of a creole, and it makes no claims about how English doesn't conform to that definition. It just talks about "squinting" at languages, mentions black Americans for no particular reason, and accuses anyone who would argue that English is a creole of being "disingenuous" for trying to reverse the "legitimazation." It's like the perfect…

>Here's my opinion: English is the result of a simplification of grammar caused by Old Norse and Old English crashing into each other with the same words but different grammar; then the French forced French usage in commerce, so most people started using a ton of French words with this English grammar. That last part sounds exactly like a creole. Grandparent's point is that you're stretching the meaning of the term t…

As an aside: would you know any good resources/other ways to learn about the social history of Sicilian-the-language? I know Maltese has had a similar social history, and its Arabic inheritance is very clear.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that strategy of borrowing a word but giving it a slightly narrower meaning" – I think this happens with most borrowing, into any language. E.g. "opsjon" in Norwegian is from "option" but only means stock/legal options, never used in the common meaning of "choices". (And the video's own example with "les peoples".) But my favorite example is when going into English from Norse, "fjord" has a quite narrow meaning in E…

Well of course, fjords should have a narrow meaning. That's kind of what separates them from bays isn't it?

Not really. We have some really wide fjords in Norway; Sognefjorden is 4.5 km wide at its widest. A fjord is technically any body of water carved out by glaciers (inland lakes or coast inlets), but the word fjord is used pretty indiscriminately; lots of fjords are not glacial in origin.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#158
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect to past tense, a "common" thing in english appears to be that the imperfect of a verb is the same word as the past particilpe of that verb. So "played" can be the imperfect tense itself, or the participle of perfect tense in "have played". In German, this doesn't happen. Imperfect tense is often formed by using a "-te" ending to the verb (so "spiel(en)" -> "spielte"), while the past participle prepends "…

German does not have this feature! In German, there is no difference in meaning between "Ich spielte Tennis" and "Ich habe Tennis gespielt". (The difference is in register, "Ich spielte Tennis" is more formal.) In English, in contrast, there is a clear difference in usage between, say, "I was playing tennis while my kids were in school", and "I have played tennis while my kids were in school".

(forgot to say, German would know "Ich war Tennis spielen ..." as much as "Ich habe Tennis gespielt ..."; the first one would be considered imperfect passive, and yes I would agree perfect passive, "Ich bin Tennis spielen gewesen ..." would be unusual to say. The english form, "I have been playing tennis ..." is common though. As is "I have played tennis", and yes I'd agree the two aren't interchangeable)

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#159
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German does not have this feature! In German, there is no difference in meaning between "Ich spielte Tennis" and "Ich habe Tennis gespielt". (The difference is in register, "Ich spielte Tennis" is more formal.) In English, in contrast, there is a clear difference in usage between, say, "I was playing tennis while my kids were in school", and "I have played tennis while my kids were in school".

I defer to you for that, simply because I'm a native speaker of German and "only" long-term fluid in English. I don't entirely grasp the difference between the two - other than "phrasing" (and on that level it exists in both), and would be likely to use them interchangeably. In both German and English.

[deleted]

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#160
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to a trip to Poland I listen to some language tapes and learn how to say "I don't understand Polish" in polish (something like "nya rezumium popolski"). Almost everybody understood English and finally when I ran into somebody who didn't and used that Polish phrase, I realized I could have just said in English "I don't understand Polish" and it actually would have been clearer communication.

I learned the same phrase in perfect BBC Polish and it backfired. I said it so well that the Poles just ignored it and continued to speak in Polish. Then I ended up with a Polish girlfriend back in the states and learned real fast. She was gorgeous.

That was exactly the response I got.

However, I did not end up with a Polish girlfriend. Your "She was gorgeous", is, I recall, redundant.

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