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My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

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Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#151

Post by lotharbot »

NotMyMorals wrote: post #144
Confusion wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, sorry, I didn't realize you were a brogrammer

I looked up "brogrammer." "A popular, cool, or otherwise normal person who has become intrigued by the fun of programming. Usually unliked by the nerdy programmers for getting all of the friends and the girls, while creating cool and useful applications." Was that meant to be an insult? One has to wonder if "male feminists" and "nice guys" share the same delusion that "white knighting" females will increase their sex…

The pejorative usage of "brogrammer" is more like "a programmer who displays all the worst characteristics normally associated with high school jocks" -- things like arrogance, misogyny, bullying, and unwarranted aggression.

(Not rendering any judgment on whether you do or don't fit this definition, just making sure everyone is clear on what was being implied above.)

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#152

Post by irahul »

rhizome wrote: post #140
irahul wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see anyone suggesting such a thing, but instead, that the majority of each gender may have certain behavior and learning styles in common. Unless you can prove that certain behavior is common among majority of females, and that certain common behavior is more significant than bazillion traits which are not shared, and then that certain behavior is significant to learning, and is more important than traits w…

You're demanding hard conclusions where there aren't any. However, they can be said to exhibit a tendency where the chances aren't exactly 100%. It's the difference between correlation and causation, and correlation is not "meaningless."

> You're demanding hard conclusions where there aren't any.

I am demanding hard conclusions, failing which I am demanding you don't make any if you aren't sure(gender difference became apparent to me that day, gender segregation works etc).

> It's the difference between correlation and causation, and correlation is not "meaningless."

I didn't claim correlation is meaningless - I just claimed you are claiming correlation, and for fuck's sake, causation, when there isn't any.

Correlation is when 2 random variables aren't probabilisticaly independent. If you can cite me correlation between gender and behavioral traits when it comes to learning, and that study isn't some crackpot theory based on how I taught a ruby workshop, I am more than willing to be corrected.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#153

Post by bermanoid »

ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

So what I'm wondering, and this is an open question to everyone here: would anything convince you, personally, that gender bias is real, or has a significant measurable effect, or is a problem? Would it take a certain kind of experiment? Some kind of data or analysis? (Or is the answer, "it's not a problem"?) Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds?

Yeah, this is extremely simple, and I've asked for this probably a dozen times in various forums without receiving any answer whatsoever, let alone a satisfactory one: show me some indication that discrimination is worse in tech than any other field. Not just that the gender ratio is skewed, or evidence for that, but that the behavior you'd like to blame that on is actually worse enough here than in other fields to justify the massive gender gap here.

That should be easy, right? If the reason women don't go into tech at a 4:1 ratio is that all of us fucktard guys are assholes, it should be easy to pull numerical evidence of that fact, I'd think.

The wage gap should be more pronounced than in most fields, right?

Or the number of sexual assault/harassment incidents per woman should be higher than in other fields, surely?

Ok, or maybe more women leave the workforce in this field per year than in others, presumably because of the horrible atmosphere that us piggish guys create?

Don't just tell me that it's hard for women in tech, that could merely be because this is a hot button issue and there are few women in tech; show me that it's worse than it is elsewhere, in all of those other fields where women have their asses grabbed every day yet still keep on keeping on, without (for instance) blog posts blaming the lack of women in waitressing on the harassment that waitresses get from men in the field. Give me some explanation for the fact that the harassment my girlfriend receives every day in retail, including from her male boss (and this is not unusual, I know dozens of women in retail), beats out the worst of the women-in-tech harassment horror stories, yet her field is better than 50/50 women to men. I need something, because to me it seems like there's something a lot more important and powerful going on than mere sexism, which is everywhere and still doesn't keep women from taking jobs.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#154

Post by irahul »

andrewflnr wrote: post #150
irahul wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I find it hard to believe that all females(or males) exhibit same behavioral and learning traits. And even if this happens to be true, then why stop at gender-segregation? How about divide on gender, then divide on introvert-extrovert, then divide on active-passive, then divide on "external validation seeker"-"doesn't give a shit about external validation", then divide on "interested in lear…

I am pretty sure you will be left with a class of 1 in the end. You say that like it's a bad thing. In the ideal case, we would have completely personalized education for every student. Most of what prevents it is lack of resources (and then of course you would need teachers smart enough to make it work).

I am not saying like it's a bad thing. I am pointing out a group of students isn't going to be consistent and coherent for a group size > 1. At a broader level, if you are claiming that a group of females is different from a group of males, that is true; but that is meaningless since a group of females is again different from a group of females.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#155

Post by sopooneo »

Alex3917 wrote: post #50
wisty wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think teaching 101 covers widely discredited education theories (stuff like Myress-Briggs, visual auditory and kinesthetic learning styles, and the like) rather than practical teaching tips. There's a practicum to teach them how to teach.

I mean if you actually get a masters in education, it's almost all practical stuff. You need to take entire classes on things like how to write on a chalkboard and how to spot kids who are being abused at home. Educational theory and research is only one or two classes out of the two years. And classroom management is one of the biggest topics, and it's the first thing you get evaluated on when you're doing your stud…

Not the masters in education I have. I heard tales from very old timers about having to take "write on the chalkboard" classes, but that was never even brought up for us. Though frankly, that specifically should be. Maybe not a whole course, but a few days of it. There are a lot of ways to get that wrong.

But back to your point. My degree is from a university in Boston and helped me get my teaching license. Almost everything we covered was theoretical and, with a few important exceptions, utterly useless.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#156

Post by [deleted] »

bermanoid wrote: post #153
ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

So what I'm wondering, and this is an open question to everyone here: would anything convince you, personally, that gender bias is real, or has a significant measurable effect, or is a problem? Would it take a certain kind of experiment? Some kind of data or analysis? (Or is the answer, "it's not a problem"?) Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds? Yeah, this is extrem…

[deleted]

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#157

Post by Tichy »

technomancy wrote: post #139
Tichy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess a lot of developers are self taught. At least for me it is somewhat difficult to believe that there should be gender bias in sitting down alone with a book and a computer. Perhaps a lot of people who are also self taught feel in a similar way, hence the typical reactions on HN.

"Self taught" is a relative term. Very few people learn in pure isolation; most of the time it means "not in a classroom." Mailing lists, friends, and IRC are extremely helpful to learners, and thus social dynamics nearly always have a role to play.

In the old days it used to be socially awkward kids who found solace in using the computer, because nobody would bother them there. Now it is being turned on it's head and the bullied kids are the bullies who mob against women? It doesn't make that much sense, imo.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#158

Post by NotMyMorals »

lotharbot wrote: post #151
NotMyMorals wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked up "brogrammer." "A popular, cool, or otherwise normal person who has become intrigued by the fun of programming. Usually unliked by the nerdy programmers for getting all of the friends and the girls, while creating cool and useful applications." Was that meant to be an insult? One has to wonder if "male feminists" and "nice guys" share the same delusion that "white knighting" females will increase their sex…

The pejorative usage of "brogrammer" is more like "a programmer who displays all the worst characteristics normally associated with high school jocks" -- things like arrogance, misogyny, bullying, and unwarranted aggression. (Not rendering any judgment on whether you do or don't fit this definition, just making sure everyone is clear on what was being implied above.)

The pejorative usage of "brogrammer" is more like "a programmer who displays all the worst characteristics normally associated with high school jocks" -- things like arrogance, misogyny, bullying, and unwarranted aggression

Who associates these characteristics with "high school jocks" and who assumes these are negative characteristics?

Arrogance (i.e., a superior male) misogyny (i.e., a man who the woman I lust after has sex with) bullying (i.e., a man who is socially superior than me) and unwarranted aggression (i.e., a male who out-competes me).

Sound like "brogrammer" means "I really envy this superior man."

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#159

Post by wisty »

chernevik wrote: post #53
mrleinad wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a learned technique for getting assistance. It worked on you, didn't it? I was going to point out the same thing. A women playing dumb to get help from a man, is not uncommon at all.

It could also just be an expression of generalized anxiety, or a disavowal of expertise to keep one's self from getting cocky. I'm a guy, I often make clear statements of my confusions to keep myself straight on what I do and don't understand. And she may have felt, accurately, that she didn't understand the material as well as the OP thought. You can produce a lot of code in a tutorial without knowing enough to prod…

I've heard it said that the smartest people are the ones who don't think they know what they are doing, because then they try to figure it out.

Anecdotally, a lot of PhDs have impostor syndrome.

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