Earlier quoted context omitted.
They still have their hostile parts pairing. Parts pairing isn’t inherently bad but it could be done in a way that is consumer friendly. Are you seriously telling me that apple can release the iCloud lock on the phone when you go to sell it but they can’t release the lock on the parts? It’s that simple. Tether the iCloud lock to the parts themselves. If I have findmy turned on and the parts are harvested they are com…
Hopefully such hostile practices from apple and other companies will end. Everybody agrees it's bad. They have absolutely no reason to be allowed to continue doing part pairing and making components unavailable. It's evil for consumers and for nature as well.
Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
151–160 of 165 posts
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its not tacit acceptance. Corps are amoral and always looking out for their bottom line. If that just so happens to mean they align with what the people want then good. And if it doesn't then its on the people to pressure politicians to change the laws and regulations to incentive they do and punish they don't. Cynicism over corps lacking no morals will get you nowhere. They don't and wont. So instead of complaining…
If I, as a human, only make decisions that are in my best interest regardless of their harm on others, you would not call me amoral. You’d call me immoral. Why does this standard not apply to cooperations?
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#153Here’s what I think of Apples right to repair support: bullshit
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would say that, given the particular set of solutions Apple has used to stamp out this pickpocket-to-chop-shop pipeline, the way for "Apple [to] reconcile their current DRM scheme with users that want to repair their hardware themselves" looks exactly like what Apple have implemented: A scheme where individuals can repair phones, but where every user who wants to order non-device-bound replacement parts must first…
Well again, now you're conflating two separate things. As I've demonstrated before, there are legal repairs with non-stolen parts that Apple would prevent today. Apple considers those repairs wrongful, because they do not include brand-new OEM components or allow the user to designate that a handset can be used for repairs. This is an arbitrary decision, made by them, and justified by a non-technical, unrelated reaso…
Yes, but as I was attempting to emphasize, the problem is that these same repairs represent "supply chain leaks."
If the operation available to users was to "release their device and all the parts inside it from tracking, such that these parts can then be used to repair any other device" — then these parts would disappear off the face of the earth from a supply-chain perspective, where they could then be stolen from the recycler, from the repair shop, or any number of other intermediaries, before finally making their way into a new device.
(The exception to this "leak" being the one kind of "recycling" that's already permitted: the one where you're releasing the parts from tracking because you're sending them back to the first-party OEM integrator, who can then keep internal supply-chain security for where the parts go from there. I.e., the Apple recycling program.)
The obvious way to prevent the "supply chain leak" would be to change the operation being permitted: rather than "de-identifying" parts so that they're owned by nobody indefinitely until put in a new device; instead, only permit instantaneous transfers, authorized by the current owner at point of transfer, from one device directly into another, such that at all points in time, every part that's left the factory has a legal owner.
I'm a decentralized-systems nerd, so I do realize that you can do something like this without there being one central party who keeps the current supply-chain state of all parts in their own proprietary database. You can use a federated "supply chain transparency" blockchain; design the system so that the validators of this system can elect third-party companies as delegated oracles to then enforce KYC-like identity verification upon signers before they're allowed to perform transactions; etc.
But decentralization in this direction is pointless toward your stated goals, because either it's not decentralized enough to permit individuals as participants (so you inevitably have to lean on some professional, "authorized" repair shop, meaning there is still no actual "right to repair" for individuals); or it's so decentralized that it allows individuals not motivated to repair entry into the system — at which point those individuals have a valuable good (their identity-stake in the system) that they can sell to malicious actors who want to use their identities as "burner identities" (see also: Amazon + eBay sellers buying "aged" and "brushed" accounts to use to perpetrate fraud; people who sell their own email/Discord/etc accounts on carding forums for about a dollar each; etc.) Note how none of the companies talking about "supply chain transparency" are proposing it for the secondary market — only for the primary factory-to-OEM-to-consumer logistical pipeline. For the primary market, it works, because there are a set of known actors who are supposed to be participants in the system, and anyone else is supposed to be kept out. But for the secondary market, this paradigm falls apart.
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well again, now you're conflating two separate things. As I've demonstrated before, there are legal repairs with non-stolen parts that Apple would prevent today. Apple considers those repairs wrongful, because they do not include brand-new OEM components or allow the user to designate that a handset can be used for repairs. This is an arbitrary decision, made by them, and justified by a non-technical, unrelated reaso…
> there are legal repairs with non-stolen parts that Apple would prevent today Yes, but as I was attempting to emphasize, the problem is that these same repairs represent "supply chain leaks." If the operation available to users was to "release their device and all the parts inside it from tracking, such that these parts can then be used to repair any other device" — then these parts would disappear off the face of t…
There you go! I'm glad we can mutually acknowledge that this is more of an Apple problem than it is an end-user one.
> either it's not decentralized enough to permit individuals as participants (so you inevitably have to lean on some professional, "authorized" repair shop, meaning there is still no actual "right to repair" for individuals); or it's so decentralized that it allows individuals not motivated to repair entry into the system
If that's your core conceit, then I just plain disagree. The end-user is a perfectly acceptable party to authorize repair if you don't obsess over your supply chain. As the owner of that hardware, it should be their express right to choose any replacement part they desire for their screen or volume rocker. In this case, Apple has gone out of their way to break third-party options and documented repair methods. It's not about functionality or security, their current implementation (as you've identified) wholly revolves around supply chain control.
It's not illegal, but it should be. The status-quo is morally wrong and makes anti-consumer compromises to ensure the profitability of Apple's secondary market. Anti-theft technology is not inherently amoral, but hardware DRM is, when you use it like this.
> Note how none of the companies talking about "supply chain transparency" are proposing it for the secondary market
Of course they aren't.
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Although what you say isn’t wrong … Apple really can’t win. Oppose RtR. Gets criticized. Complies with RtR. Also gets criticized. LOL
"Complies" is an overstatement. The independent repair program they released was so restrictive and missed so many key parts that it felt like intentional sabotage/poisoning of the well. "We helped independent repair shops but they can't even do basic stuff, see?" The self-repair program is a step in the right direction but it's also kind of disingenuous because it provides parts specifically to you , i.e. you can't…
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
> there are legal repairs with non-stolen parts that Apple would prevent today Yes, but as I was attempting to emphasize, the problem is that these same repairs represent "supply chain leaks." If the operation available to users was to "release their device and all the parts inside it from tracking, such that these parts can then be used to repair any other device" — then these parts would disappear off the face of t…
> the problem is that these same repairs represent "supply chain leaks." There you go! I'm glad we can mutually acknowledge that this is more of an Apple problem than it is an end-user one. > either it's not decentralized enough to permit individuals as participants (so you inevitably have to lean on some professional, "authorized" repair shop, meaning there is still no actual "right to repair" for individuals); or i…
...because the economics of it don't work out in favor of actually effectively tracing parts through the secondary-market supply chain, rendering the stated goal of "supply chain transparency" unreachable, and so the system-as-designed pointless to participate in. Are you implying something different?
> There you go! I'm glad we can mutually acknowledge that this is more of an Apple problem than it is an end-user one.
There are more participants in this ecosystem than "the end-user" and "Apple."
Specifically, the actor being harmed here is legitimate third-party repair shops. These small businesses suddenly have a problem... in that these same organized criminal gangs that were previously stealing whole phones, would suddenly have a large incentive to instead break into their repair shops to steal their stocks of "unlocked" parts! And, unlike Apple, who can just post armed guards around their factories and shipping trucks, independent repair shops are small and usually low-margin businesses — so there's very little they can afford to do about that kind of high-grade theft!
For an analogy: narcotic drugs. Drug thieves have a choice: they can try to steal drugs from a pharmaceutical supplier (far out of the way, and well-guarded + built like a fortress with barbed-wire fences and so forth) or a hospital pharmacy (deep within hospitals, also well-guarded, and likely open 24 hours) Or they can try to steal drugs from a small neighbourhood drug store (not well guarded, empty at night.) Which do you think they choose?
But ignoring that, this "releasing of parts" still harms the end-user — because it gives the grey-market buyers of repair parts — the same ones buying from chop-shops — a channel by which to acquire a stock of the critical missing parts (logic boards!) required to build full new phones out of mostly-otherwise-stolen parts.
Previously, these grey-market buyers could only operate as repair shops, repairing existing phones (i.e. building a phone up around a customer's working logic board.) But now, by buying 90% chop-shop parts and 10% legitimate released-to-secondary-market logic boards, they can construct full phones for sale, that are cheaper than the cheapest legitimate secondary-market phones! And guess what direction this takes the demand for chop-shop parts, and therefore the demand for stolen phones?
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the problem is that these same repairs represent "supply chain leaks." There you go! I'm glad we can mutually acknowledge that this is more of an Apple problem than it is an end-user one. > either it's not decentralized enough to permit individuals as participants (so you inevitably have to lean on some professional, "authorized" repair shop, meaning there is still no actual "right to repair" for individuals); or i…
> Of course they aren't. ...because the economics of it don't work out in favor of actually effectively tracing parts through the secondary-market supply chain, rendering the stated goal of "supply chain transparency" unreachable, and so the system-as-designed pointless to participate in. Are you implying something different? > There you go! I'm glad we can mutually acknowledge that this is more of an Apple problem t…
Alright, you had me doubled over in laughter for a second there. I hope to see John Deere argue the same when their anti-repair reckoning comes, the testimony would be legendary.
> But ignoring that, this "releasing of parts" still harms the end-user — because it gives the grey-market buyers of repair parts — the same ones buying from chop-shops — a channel by which to acquire a stock of the critical missing parts (logic boards!) required to build full new phones out of mostly-otherwise-stolen parts.
Two refutations:
- If this was Apple's end-goal, then they wouldn't stop users from replacing piecemeal components themselves and only use the DRM to prevent complete "ship of Theseus" situations as you are presenting. Even in that scenario, those iPhones are technically refurbished (like it or not) because their processors are OEM.
- By characterizing the secondhand market as gray, you are both acknowledging it has legitimate demand and is a market. If Apple is using their power as an original manufacturer to stop people beyond "minting" new iPhones, it should be stopped. I'm not saying this as a whistleblower, I'm saying this as a genuine regulatory and legislative suggestion.
> But now, by buying 90% chop-shop parts and 10% legitimate released-to-secondary-market logic boards
Then, as I said, force the end-user to authorize the release of the components. Make it some absolutely stupid security theater stuff, to really give people like you something to yap about. Make it a 48 hour process that involves 2 Genius Bar assistants and a remote expert who ensure that you aren't being held at gunpoint by using your Apple Watch to track your blood pressure. Then you both fix the market, give people a nice customer story to help them sleep at night, and let people repair their phones. I'm not asking for the world, it's a trillion-dollar business. Of course I'm going to expect the base-level benevolent conduct from them when regulators don't babysit their every move.
Alternatively, Apple could acknowledge that this is "not their problem" and trying to pretend otherwise is a good way of getting their anticompetitive clock cleaned.
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not really moot, it's a whole separate subsystem that you have to reason about. "Swap it with one that you know works" is a solid troubleshooting step that is completely ruined if you have to call a third party to do it. Besides, maybe the big solar flare comes and you can't call Apple for a few months or years. Offline repair needs to be possible.
> "Swap it with one that you know works" In the video linked above they say the parts have to be Apple-certified. It's not as flexible as buying any random part and being able to use it right away, but it's not surprising considering it's Apple. Still, this makes swapping parts a predictable process.
Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hopefully such hostile practices from apple and other companies will end. Everybody agrees it's bad. They have absolutely no reason to be allowed to continue doing part pairing and making components unavailable. It's evil for consumers and for nature as well.
I want parts that I can verify to be genuine in my next second hand phone.