Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution • Hacker News Board

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#151

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 7:11 AM UTC

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #85

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helps with accessibility, not with the problem that cashless is dangerous for democracy. Everytime you pay anything with something else than cash, it is recorded: the amount, the time, the place, and the nature of the thing you buy. There is no way to go to a gay bar (or another place loaded with consequences) without a trace. And this is needed for human dignity. There is way to support a controversial political…

Credit cards actually don't need electricity or the network to be up. That was kind of the original point. The business that you're paying trusts the card issuer to pay them on your behalf, so they can communicate the payment details to the bank asynchronously, and after supplying the paid for goods or services. But the rest of your point stands. Cash grants a lot more flexibility.

I don't know of any business in my country that has the manual machine anymore.

But even if it did, how would visa process the recipe without power ? Their money is all bits.

Cash is cash, even when there is no accounting.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#152

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 7:12 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #66

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helps with accessibility, not with the problem that cashless is dangerous for democracy. Everytime you pay anything with something else than cash, it is recorded: the amount, the time, the place, and the nature of the thing you buy. There is no way to go to a gay bar (or another place loaded with consequences) without a trace. And this is needed for human dignity. There is way to support a controversial political…

There is no way to pay for something when electricity or network goes down. And this is necessary to deal with crisis. I've noticed that the loudest voices in favor of getting rid of cash usually seem to live in places that have few, if any, natural disasters.

Indeed. Or war. Or just bad engineering.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#153

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 7:14 AM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #61

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it did bring the concept to be debated to HN. I'm now thinking we should do it in my country.

In which country do you live where going cashless is a bigger concern for the population than healthcare, housing, education, cost of living and the rest, because I'd like to live there?

All those topics will go down the drain even more if you get into a dictatorship. And cashless is a fantastic tool to get it.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#154

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 7:15 AM UTC

staunton wrote: post #101

pessimizer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no way to go to a gay bar (or another place loaded with consequences) without a trace. And this is needed for human dignity. We should remember that this is also true about phones.

You can leave your phone at home and go to a bar no problem. If you can't pay for drinks, that's a problem.

Op has a point since one phone is enough to ruin the privacy of a place. It doesn't need to be yours to cause some trouble.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#155

Post by landemva » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 9:12 AM UTC

laurencerowe wrote: post #145

landemva wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the exchange rate of fiat currencies for goods and services simply is inconsistent with the facts. Those who did well in the birthing geo lottery of North America have a different experience than most others. Even European nations in past 25 years cancelled their currencies.

EU countries who switched to the Euro did not cancel their currency. It automatically converted and you had years to convert physical currency at the bank.

If you find a 25 year old buried bucket of Portuguese Escudo, US dollar, and gold, which still spends? Which was cancelled or went to zero? Europe has frequently cancelled their currencies over past 25 and 100 years.

Those who were born into US dollar over past 25 or 100 years may believe fiat currency stays around, but that is a US-centric view.

Maybe Austrians have a valid historical concern about cash.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#156

Post by landemva » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 9:25 AM UTC

wolfi1 wrote: post #81

axus wrote: post #46

While at the grocery store this week, they happily announced that the credit-card processing system had just come back online. It had been down for a few hours for the entire store. Having the option to pay in cash was important even if it meant a trip to the ATM.

that's the catch in Austria, the number of ATMs goes down as we speak, there are certain places where you have to drive half an hour to the next ATM, so this cash thing is a bit pointless

Maybe there could be a way to put aside some cash and coin at home as an emergecy fund. I keep a box of 500 half dollars, along with paper money.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#157

Post by FirmwareBurner » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 12:13 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #153

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which country do you live where going cashless is a bigger concern for the population than healthcare, housing, education, cost of living and the rest, because I'd like to live there?

All those topics will go down the drain even more if you get into a dictatorship. And cashless is a fantastic tool to get it.

What's with these strawmen arguments? How will cash prevent a dictatorship?

And all cash users don't just keep their all cash under their mattress to be eaten away by rats and inflation, but still use banks and assets to hold their money and use ATMs to get cash as needed, so the government can still lock your banc account leaving you penniless regardless if you used to pay by cash at the supermarket or by card.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#158

Post by FirmwareBurner » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 12:15 PM UTC

s1mplicissimus wrote: post #118

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which country do you live where going cashless is a bigger concern for the population than healthcare, housing, education, cost of living and the rest, because I'd like to live there?

there's always bigger fish to fry and therefore we cannot talk about the smaller ones? but srsly, "cashless" used to be a FPÖ (the far right party in Austria) topic, now the conservatives have finally picked up on it. I don't like either of their agendas and nobody seriously suggested going cashless in Austria. However, I'm also not a fan of being forced to use a private company just to pay for my basic necessities.…

>there's always bigger fish to fry and therefore we cannot talk about the smaller ones?

Why not focus on the bigger fish that actually impact everyone? If I'm bleeding from my severed artery, I'm gonna care about that more than my chipped tooth.

Politicians focusing on mediatizing bogus issues to keep voting population attention away from the real issue is the oldest trick in the book ("hey don't look at our corruption scandals and the rising CoL, look at how we're gonna defend your use of cash").

>However, I'm also not a fan of being forced to use a private company just to pay for my basic necessities.

What about your bank? Necessities are more than just paying for groceries at the supermarket by cash, you know.

All your other actual necessities like salary, tax-returns, insurances, utilities and sometimes rent are deducted automatically via direct debit from you bank account, not via cash-in0hand trasnations. You can't live cash-only without a bank as an intermediate anyway.

>handling cash becomes so expensive that it will be shut down for cost reasons.

But handling cash the right way (counting it, accounting it, carrying and storing it securely, etc) already IS more expensive that contactless transaction fees, but cash-only businesses offset that by doing tax-fraud, and as an honest tax-payer I want tax-fraud to end. Getting rid of cash completely is just a bonus and a means to ending tax-fraud. Tax fraud is a bigger issue in Austria.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#159

Post by FirmwareBurner » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 12:17 PM UTC

mdp2021 wrote: post #144

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have had requests in Austria to pay with a card: We must be living in different Austrias then. I've never been pressured to pay by card ever and many places don't even accept cards. >After 2020, such pressure was on signs spread in the territory. Well yeah, Covid happened in 2020, and contactless payment is much more hygienic than exchanging paper that's been through god knows where throught its lifetime. Or don't…

So you are minimizing the pressure towards using cards instead of cash in the last years as contingent only. At least in Austria. And you are suggesting that now it is over. You are also minimizing the point that Austria is not a disconnected independent self-ruling entity, but part of bigger systems and a subject in bigger systems. I said: are there still traditional bank cards in Austria, not readable from a distan…

>are there still traditional bank cards in Austria, not readable from a distance?

Do you actually live in Austria and know the real situation on the ground, or are you making up fantasy scenarios for strawman arguments for some good old-fashioned internet trolling? Because you would know the answer tot that.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#160

Post by mdp2021 » Sat, Aug 05, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #159

mdp2021 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are minimizing the pressure towards using cards instead of cash in the last years as contingent only. At least in Austria. And you are suggesting that now it is over. You are also minimizing the point that Austria is not a disconnected independent self-ruling entity, but part of bigger systems and a subject in bigger systems. I said: are there still traditional bank cards in Austria, not readable from a distan…

>are there still traditional bank cards in Austria, not readable from a distance? Do you actually live in Austria and know the real situation on the ground, or are you making up fantasy scenarios for strawman arguments for some good old-fashioned internet trolling? Because you would know the answer tot that.

I wrote very clearly, FirmwareBurner: if you did not understand, re-read what I wrote and make the mandated effort. If clarifications are useful, ask for them.

Nobody told you I live in Austria. The information I have is based on my research, which is unfortunately bound to be limited (which also implies, it was unsuccessful in finding around alternatives to the current mess). I have also been in Austria and made my limited queries (not only as I have not visited every bank, but also as it did not happen in the past months, and some of the systemic changes are only weeks old): those queries have been unsuccessful, like in other territories. And very clearly, the point was beyond bank cards - it is about binding trends, as I wrote very literally -, which are mentioned to make an example. And if you have good information, share it, or you are being unhelpful, further to your unhelpful attitude towards comprehension.

> fantasy scenarios for strawman arguments

Logical process, induction and deduction, probabilistic. Maestro is gone, and it is the last international channel with "traditional" service I knew. In some territories, local channels have been shut down. I have been in a few banks of "your" territory, they did not offer said service. Web sources have not shown solutions. All of this does not promise well. And I have not made factual statements: both times I asked in this branch I made direct questions.

If you, from this, could deduce "Oh, but see: Austria reveals to be an exception", because you retained services that disappeared elsewhere, then the original point would be corroborated by the fact that elsewhere those services disappeared.