Live data from Hacker News

“Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

gsb.stanford.edu

151–160 of 310 posts

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re a top performer you bail as soon as there are layoffs anyways. I certainly do. It’s rarely a sign that anything good is in your future, they’re often performed poorly, and the work environment post-layoffs is incredibly bleak and disheartening. If you have options there’s no good reason to stay.

Where would you go in this environment? Most of the top-name companies have had layoffs themselves, or at the very least are at the hiring freeze stage of the layoff routine.

There’s tons of very profitable companies hiring right now - the “top-name” companies doing layoffs were all “growth-first, profit-never” types. We’re not in an industry-wide downturn and there’s a hell of a lot more out there than FAANG or MANGA or whatever we’re calling it now.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#152
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they abnormally liquidating those things at the end of 2021 compared to other years? Asking because I would expect executives to sell "by the 10s of millions" pretty much every year. Especially since they cannot really sell on a whim (in the US), as executives are legally required to file their stock purchase/sell plans with SEC far ahead of time.

10b5-1 plans do not have to be filed with the SEC. (The use of a 10b5-1 is also not technically a legal requirement, but is a workaround to allow planned sales even if you become aware of material, non-public information between the time of entering into the plan and the time of the trade.)

You can prove the boss had an intention to sell his stock based on a feeling of future doom (or just greed). What’s tougher to prove is whether he delayed an announcement by a week so one more sale went through before the stock took a hit.

Or speeding up good news so his scheduled sale rides the high.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but those same companies still wound up doing layoffs later on. So if your criteria is not to work at a company without layoffs then you’re still SOL.

I'd rather join a company post-layoff than pre-layoff.

Say you're at company A. Company A and B do layoffs of similar size. Why is switching to company B after the layoffs your preferred action?

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#154
post #52
post #4

I love this point: "The tech industry layoffs are basically an instance of social contagion, in which companies imitate what others are doing." I really wish for a less supine tech press. I've not seen any of these titans of industry being held accountable for the apparent major mistakes of overhiring. And I'm not even talking actual consequences here; these people will surely get bonuses for this. I'd just like to s…

Do we have any evidence that the over-hiring was a mistake? Could companies not have seen the free money and decided to beef up their staff for short term gains in their roadmap, with the knowledge and intention that they will likely be cutting later while getting to keep all that intellectual output? I don't see why we put this past them.

Interesting way to look at it. It certainly makes sense that companies hire to capture intellectual output when money is cheap and then tighten spending when access to easy money goes away even if they are making money hand-over-fist in their business.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#155
> The tech industry layoffs are basically an instance of social contagion, in which companies imitate what others are doing. If you look for reasons for why companies do layoffs, the reason is that everybody else is doing it. Layoffs are the result of imitative behavior and are not particularly evidence-based.

Or, well, maybe a price to earnings ratio of >60 at tech companies is not sustainable in the long term. Also, net margins across the whole sector have been decreasing lately. Comparisons from Q3 2021 vs Q3 2022:

- Meta's went from 32% to 15% - Amazon's from 7% to 2% - Google's from 29% to 20%

> Could there be a tech recession? Yes. Was there a bubble in valuations? Absolutely. Did Meta overhire? Probably. But is that why they are laying people off? Of course not. Meta has plenty of money. These companies are all making money. They are doing it because other companies are doing it.

Meta also loves having a profit margin of 40%. Why? Because big profit margins also mean higher paper value of executive's stocks. I believe that when advertising revenue and growth tumble, it's the easiest to fire people to maintain margins.

> Layoffs often do not increase stock prices, in part because layoffs can signal that a company is having difficulty.

When Zuckerberg announced on 9th Nov 2022 that he'd reduce Meta's work force by 13% the stock rallied by 22%. Same for Amazon (20% rally after announcement of layoffs).

But I don't know! Stocks often rally when the business itself is good and you announce that the very good profit margin stays. I wouldn't expect this to work for companies who are still burning a lot of money, but it's probably a good method to drive up stock prices at companies which already make lots of money.

> Moreover, layoffs don’t work to improve company performance, Pfeffer adds. Academic studies have shown that time and time again, workplace reductions don’t do much for paring costs. Severance packages cost money, layoffs increase unemployment insurance rates, and cuts reduce workplace morale and productivity as remaining employees are left wondering, “Could I be fired too?”

Yes, I wouldn't expect productivity to increase after lay-offs either. But if productivity decreases less than the money you're saving within the next year or so, it's still a good deal for the company, I guess?

The real question I have about this is where the average break-even point lies. How many months does it take until a lay-off in this environment becomes profitable?

> When the economy turns back in the next 12, 14, or 18 months, they will go back to the market and compete with the same companies to hire talent

Even he does not know when the economy turns back.

> Layoffs kill people, literally. They kill people in a number of ways. Layoffs increase the odds of suicide by two and a half times. This is also true outside of the United States, even in countries with better social safety nets than the U.S., like New Zealand. > Layoffs increase mortality by 15-20% over the following 20 years.

I believe this is unfortunately true, especially if you wholeheartedly did your job.

However, I'd like to set the current lay-offs into context: Tech accounts for 50% or more of the lay-offs; tech only makes up 40-year low. The last time we had a rate this low was 1969.

Meta had 45k employee pre-covid. In November 2022 they had 85k employees, so almost doubled during covid. In this context a reduction of 13% almost sounds like a rounding error. Which other sector had such excessive labour growth during covid?

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#156
post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

[deleted]

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#157
post #77
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have any evidence that the over-hiring was a mistake? Could companies not have seen the free money and decided to beef up their staff for short term gains in their roadmap, with the knowledge and intention that they will likely be cutting later while getting to keep all that intellectual output? I don't see why we put this past them.

Another question I'd ask is: why can't the find something useful to do with these people in the meantime? Downturns are definitionally temporary. Can managers really find no way to prepare for the coming good times? Or is there no way to use those staff to gain ground while everybody else is retreating? Workers are getting blamed by many for (claimed) low productivity. But why isn't that seen as a managerial failure?…

I think managers will do that (keep popel around just in case), but businessmen (or CEO's) will optimize for what's best for the business. No? A lower-level manager who actually sees the nitty-gritty of getting something done will not really have as much of a say in the broader business.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#158
post #18

This really depends on the percentage of the workforce your laying off. A small %2-%6 one is really getting rid of people you don't want, but it's too much of a pain in the ass to do the entire PIP & political process to do so, or they're toxic / unproductive but well positioned that firing them is hard. A streamlined 'just pick people' layoff process helps with all of those issues. The bottom %5 percentile people th…

This is not to call you out in particular, but I see this exact sort of "just world fallacy" interpretation of layoffs all over this site and it's really fucking weird. No wonder there's such a stigma around workers who were laid off, with this attitude rampant.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I’m a bit confused on how an article on layoffs misses the massive increase in cost of capital. The entire market has changed.

How is the 'massive' increase in cost of capital affecting Google, a company making 60bln profit a year from mostly services?

Google’s customers are going to reduce their investment (including ad spend) as a result of the increased cost of capital and changing economics of their business as the next recession looms large (or has already started).

Arguing that Google had a good 2022 is only tangentially relevant to Google’s prospect for the upcoming decade.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#160
The graphic and the pretense of mimetic causation, what a hilarious cope.

No mention of who is getting axed: the .5x gratuity hires, the ball-pen projects for also-ran elitists. $2 Ugandans can do it now that wokeness is dead.

This will lead to higher pay for real 10x types. Tech starts looking like a baseball team. You have your sluggers and your fielders.

Post reply on HN