Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#151

Post by Volpe » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 11:17 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #146

Volpe wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I see what you did there... so because the soviets tried and failed (with stalinism that is). We should just assume that "free markets" are the best solution despite the obvious exploitation that occur due to the 'profit motive'? You wouldn't accept a political system that gave more votes to a select minority, so why so keen on an economic system that does that? (substitute votes, for money)

Selected how? The house/senate split in the us gives more vote to people in less populated areas and it's generally considered an okay idea.

my point exactly, yet in a free market economy the rich have a lot more money to 'vote' than the poor. Wealth is inherited (for no valid reason).

Poor families stay poor, rich stay rich.

In our political metaphor, it is the same as totalitarianism, the powerful stay powerful through use of force, and weak stay weak.

Why do the same people advocate polar opposites regarding politics and economy?

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#152

Post by drumdance » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 1:48 PM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #143

drumdance wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Intrinsic value?" What if I invent a new banana plant that can grow in cold weather. It's so successful that there is a banana glut. All the banana republics face bankruptcy because it costs more to ship the darn things than for me to go out back and pick a fresh bunch off my own personal banana tree? This may seem like a silly example, but think of how the invention of the tractor affected the draft horse industry.…

Oh I see what you did there... so because the soviets tried and failed (with stalinism that is). We should just assume that "free markets" are the best solution despite the obvious exploitation that occur due to the 'profit motive'? You wouldn't accept a political system that gave more votes to a select minority, so why so keen on an economic system that does that? (substitute votes, for money)

Free markets are the least bad option so far. You tried to make the same point about intrinsic value the Marx, Engels and their followers have been making for the last 150 years.

Rhetoric only gets you so far. It's easy to seize the moral high ground when you don't have to actually implement. It's like me saying "there needs to be a better search engine than Google" and getting mad if someone suggests I build one.

And as another commenter posted earlier, the US Senate prioritizes votes from low-population states.

And "money" is just a store of value. Ultimately it has to be backed by a marketplace that accepts its value.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#153

Post by drumdance » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 1:50 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #131

drumdance wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that hasn't occurred to them? When's the last time you fel the need to threaten someone with suicide? My guess is never. In that case, can you begin to imagine how desperate someone must feel if this strikes him as a viable option?

I think it hasn't occurred to jmathes, and I think they are bluffing. I have not heard that things are so bad in China that it's impossible to get a job and suicide is the only alternative. This is just a negotiating tactic.

A lot of people at Foxconn have already committed suicide. Why would they be bluffing this time? It's the exact opposite of the boy crying wolf.

Also, by reading this article, aren't you now hearing that "things are so bad in China?" Given the size and importance of Foxconn, this is the equivalent of wildcat strikes at GM or Ford. For all we know there are many small firms that are also abusive, but they don't get the media attention.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#154

Post by nik_0_0 » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 3:59 PM UTC

whatusername wrote: post #74

nik_0_0 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the first to admit I'm quite ignorant of my own history, let alone the economic history of Korea and Japan, but surely you aren't suggesting that if we keep buying stuff from China they will turn into a rich country and magically increase the working conditions?

Basically that's how it's worked for everyone else. And that's working for China. As has been pointed out -- 12 hours in a factory beats 16 hours in a rice paddy. These people aren't slaves -- they are working hard to secure a better life (mainly for their children). China is turning into a rich country. Go and watch this video: http://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-asias-rise-ted-... and play around with the…

Thanks for the links, I will check them out.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#155

Post by srdev » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 4:18 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #57

srdev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sources that the Nexus is actually built in Korea without Foxconn involvement? Samsung is a Foxconn customer.

Now that you mention it, none that I'd rely on. My initial claim was made based on a cursory glance at the results page for "where is the galaxy nexus made?" Digging a little deeper, it seems some people have Nexii with "Made in China" on the back, whereas some say "Made in Korea". I suspect even the Korean phones are only assembled there.

That's a shame. I was hopeful that the Nexus would present an ethical option for smartphones.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#156

Post by Dylan16807 » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 4:41 PM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #150

Dylan16807 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about the guy in the back that tracks all the bananas and schedules the deliveries and orders the equipment and all the other logistics on this banana team. Does he not get paid? Or does this job not exist somehow? Creating a banana farm takes money. Who is going to do it? If there are no profits then nobody that focuses on money will bother, and nobody that focuses on rewarding labor can get a loan eithe…

sorry to rankle you. I'm not meaning to. More playing out a thought experiment. So this hypothetical (socialist) banana farm, in order not to disadvantage anyone, would have to be owned by the local community (and ultimately the nation), given private ownership wouldn't exist. People aren't focused on money, or profit, they are focused on bananas, because they enjoy contributing to society. > If I invent a banana pic…

Don't worry, I'm not rankled.

So you're saying there isn't private ownership of any objects but there is private ownership of money? That's not something I had realized about your scenario and if I've got it right I find it strange.

Or do people not get paid in private money and I don't understand your original point about pay whatsoever.

And yes that scenario I was making is deliberately about an exploitative capitalist.

Yes, profits lead to both good and bad.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#157

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #142

philwelch wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether it's more productive to conquer other continents and plunder them with 18th century technology or just produce stuff with 21st century technology. And it's not as easy as you'd think. Most of the imperial powers spent a lot of money on things like shipping people across oceans, maintaining vast military forces to guard their empires, building massive amounts of infrastructure in their empires,…

China has plenty of shit to figure out for the first time - things like the one-child policy are evidence of this. But my real issue is that the idea that western europe industrialised and became an economic powerhouse just on the basis of it's own factory sweat is a poor reading of history. Also, not sure what you mean by world war between colonies. Spain, England and France had numerous colonies, but didn't abandon…

There were probably a half dozen wars before World War I that involved colonial theatres. The Dutch-Portuguese war, the Seven Years' War, the War of Austrian Succession, and the War of Spanish Succession are some examples. Many of these are considered world wars for that very reason.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#158

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 6:21 PM UTC

zasz wrote: post #106

philwelch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely suicidal people don't threaten to commit suicide, they just do it. These people tipped their hand by coming off the roof without Foxconn conceding to their demands. If idle threats to commit suicide are a surefire indication that someone's being mistreated, then millions of teenage ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends are mistreated, too. Threatening to jump off a building shows even less conviction than a genu…

Not everyone who is suicidal does so because they are mentally ill. People kill themselves for political causes, too. It's kind of a thing for monks to set themselves on fire as a means of political protest. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/10/world/asia/tibet-march/index.h... Also, Gandhi went on hunger strikes.

> Also, Gandhi went on hunger strikes.

As I pointed out, so did the IRA.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#159

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 7:18 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #142

philwelch wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether it's more productive to conquer other continents and plunder them with 18th century technology or just produce stuff with 21st century technology. And it's not as easy as you'd think. Most of the imperial powers spent a lot of money on things like shipping people across oceans, maintaining vast military forces to guard their empires, building massive amounts of infrastructure in their empires,…

China has plenty of shit to figure out for the first time - things like the one-child policy are evidence of this. But my real issue is that the idea that western europe industrialised and became an economic powerhouse just on the basis of it's own factory sweat is a poor reading of history. Also, not sure what you mean by world war between colonies. Spain, England and France had numerous colonies, but didn't abandon…

Oh yeah--France actually did abandon their American colonies during the Napoleonic Wars. Haiti had a revolution and Napoleon needed money to try and conquer Europe, so he sold Louisiana to the United States.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#160

Post by jmathes » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:26 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #131

drumdance wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that hasn't occurred to them? When's the last time you fel the need to threaten someone with suicide? My guess is never. In that case, can you begin to imagine how desperate someone must feel if this strikes him as a viable option?

I think it hasn't occurred to jmathes, and I think they are bluffing. I have not heard that things are so bad in China that it's impossible to get a job and suicide is the only alternative. This is just a negotiating tactic.

It did occur to me. When I said their "negotiating position is so bad that they use suicide to opt out," the choice I was talking about was between working at Foxconn and trying to find another job. I said "opt out" to mean inserting their own third option; suicide. I chose this language explicitly with the goal of showing that I realize that they have at least three options, because I expected you to argue this point with me otherwise. I'm sorry for my lack of clarity. It's something I'm working on.

Whether their plan to suicide is a bluff is relevant to our apparant disagreement. I think it is at least partly not a bluff, because Foxconn employees have a history of killing themselves. Given that their employees commit suicide based on their working conditions and perceived lack of alternative, I don't think you can rationally think it's good for them to be in this situation. I am not telling you that you should feel sympathy for them, although I certainly do. What I mean is that it is possible for a person to be in a business negotiation position that is bad in the same sense of the word "bad" that being raped is bad. The fact that they have multiple options and that the options involve money is not enough to absolve their malefactors. If I were forced to choose between paid to amputate my own body parts and starving to death for lack of money, and the person asking me to amputate my limbs could pay me without amputating my limbs at no cost to themselves, I would call that unethical. I would say so even if they were not themselves amputating my limbs, killing me, or actively restricting my other options.