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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#151

Post by Bakary »

WFHRenaissance wrote: post #146
Bakary wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't exist by definition. Or if it can I'm not equipped to visualize it.

>the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. This is first degree satire. Your third degree satire is actually satire in the second degree.

After checking it looks like the expression second degree doesn't map to English from my own language and I was translating too literally (in the first degree? lol)

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#152

Post by WalterBright »

WorldMaker wrote: post #150
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #4

This story had an amazing effect on me as a child and before it begins, yes I have a disability (though a so called invisible disability - I have type 1 diabetes and epilepsy). It isn't that we should turn a blind eye to the disabled, as many use it as a parable for. Many disabled do need extra help, but that help comes in the form of lifting up, not pushing down those who are able. The able should be encouraged, in…

I had a teacher that loved to use Harrison Bergeron as a useful discussion point on the complex difference between "Equality" and "Equity", and my understanding is that is also what Vonnegut intended. (The nihilistic modern Libertarian interpretation of "it's not even worth trying to accommodate differently abled people because Harrison Bergeron said so" seems quite contrary to a lot of Vonnegut's other works.) I app…

> The nihilistic modern Libertarian interpretation of "it's not even worth trying to accommodate differently abled people because Harrison Bergeron said so"

That isn't what Libertarians think.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#153

Post by WalterBright »

geysersam wrote: post #40
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #4

This story had an amazing effect on me as a child and before it begins, yes I have a disability (though a so called invisible disability - I have type 1 diabetes and epilepsy). It isn't that we should turn a blind eye to the disabled, as many use it as a parable for. Many disabled do need extra help, but that help comes in the form of lifting up, not pushing down those who are able. The able should be encouraged, in…

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

Americans idolize athletic skill and beauty, but look down on intellectual achievement.

"nerds"

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#154

Post by kikokikokiko »

geysersam wrote: post #102
kikokikokiko wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazilian guy here. In Brazil, state of Sao Paulo, some years ago the government wanted to implement a gifted students program, and it was DEFINITELY shut down for "politically correct" reasons, no "cutting costs" involved. But anyways, Brazil is not known worldwide as a smart celebrating country. Carnaval celebrates asses, not brains.

There's a difference between not providing extra resources to educate "gifted" students, and spending effort actively inhibiting their development. I feel what you describe falls in the first category, while the situation in the story falls in the second.

There was no extra costs involved per se. To "educate" the gifted children, you will incur some costs, be it on a regular public school or on a school dedicated to nurture this kids special abilities. What the political groups wanted, and in the end got, was a policy of not acknowledging that there are innate differences between children, and some are "better" than others. It doesn't matter that these kids, that frequent public schools in Brazil, are 100% poor. There is no rich kids in public schools in Brazil, I guarantee you that. The result is, this poor kids could have had a real jump start to their lives, but no. 10 years later they never had a chance, just stayed rotting in the garbage dumpsters the governments call public schools down here. It's the dangers of tabula rasa arguments, if you do not see reality in realities terms you end up hurting people.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#155

Post by WalterBright »

bnralt wrote: post #109
josephcsible wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Story from a local school: Parents of the more advanced math students in the grade requested some sort of more advanced math opportunities for their kids. School didn't provide any. When several of the kids used a more advanced math concept they had learned outside of school to solve a problem, the teacher told them to not do it that way because they hadn't learned it yet. The school does provide extra classes for ki…

Note the contrast between that and the athletic department, where schools are absolutely delighted to get a kid with an aptitude for sport, and push him hard to achieve.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#156

Post by StrictDabbler »

LambdaComplex wrote: post #122
egypturnash wrote: post #21

Captive to our smartphones, distracted constantly by an endless succession of oh-so-important notifications for trivial things. Who in modern life does not feel a little like Harrison Bergeron with his federally-mandated thought-train-interrupting earpiece? And who among us cannot sympathize with Albert Brock, The Murderer? https://www.readkong.com/page/the-murderer-by-ray-bradbury-8...

Complaints of this type go back over a century. Before smartphones, people complained that nobody was socializing because they were all busy reading newspapers. I think it's safe to call this argument tired at this point.

I don't think you've really processed The Murderer.

Bradbury was predicting that we'd have smaller slices of attention available, that we would choose to hyper-stimulate ourselves 24/7 and not choose to protect our time for quiet contemplation. That every moment would be filled with either important work messages or advertisements.

Bradbury doesn't even predict a way that this causes secondary harm. He just says "hey, this is how the future will look and some people won't be wild about it."

He nails it. That's exactly what our world looks like now.

His protagonist isn't a fan, probably Bradbury isn't a fan, but the explicit message is that most people will be in favor. If they weren't then we wouldn't have this kind of world.

So, ok, we can all decide what we think about that. The protagonist decides to destroy his company's equipment. The psychiatrist moves back to a life of notifications and buzzing. Life goes on and society continues to work.

The story is morally neutral. It isn't a complaint; that's the beauty of it. Bradbury is one of the few authors who often tried to achieve that kind of neutrality.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#157

Post by WalterBright »

flatline wrote: post #66
josephcsible wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Like the sibling poster said this is probably a cost cutting measure. However, I really hate the dichotomy of “special ed” vs “gifted/advanced” that permeates education. Every student has special educational needs, and by that I mean not just academics. I excelled in school with no real effort and never got the support I needed in other areas because, clearly, I was doing great. I now have a 2e kid that goes to a Wal…

> Like the sibling poster said this is probably a cost cutting measure.

In the Seattle school district, this is certainly not a cost cutting measure. It's an equity measure.

> The kids who want to excel generally will

That's true. Even though there's a complete lack of interest in them by the public schools, at least those schools don't make an effort to block them.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#158

Post by WorldMaker »

WalterBright wrote: post #152
WorldMaker wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a teacher that loved to use Harrison Bergeron as a useful discussion point on the complex difference between "Equality" and "Equity", and my understanding is that is also what Vonnegut intended. (The nihilistic modern Libertarian interpretation of "it's not even worth trying to accommodate differently abled people because Harrison Bergeron said so" seems quite contrary to a lot of Vonnegut's other works.) I app…

> The nihilistic modern Libertarian interpretation of "it's not even worth trying to accommodate differently abled people because Harrison Bergeron said so" That isn't what Libertarians think.

Anyone I've ever heard it from was a Libertarian, so it seems fair to use that as a label. I don't know or care if it is a "party plank" shared by "all Libertarians" or "true Libertarians" or "true Scotsmen", it's not relevant to my point.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#160

Post by absolutelynobo »

motohagiography wrote: post #44

Revisiting mid-century dystopian fiction seems like it might yield some insights about the present. I didn't know who the story was by until the last line. I studied his work in 9th grade english class, and it just clicked how meaningful it is that I was part of a lot of experimental education programs as a kid. One could legitimately say I escaped from a lab, and my phone has also been on silent mode with alerts tur…

Ire?
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