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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#151

Post by tuukkah »

drexlspivey wrote: post #128
tuukkah wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a demand is pretty clearly impossible to accept as a peace condition as it would just expose Ukraine to more Russian coercion in the future. Russia also demanded a categorical end to NATO expansion including in Sweden and Finland.

Says who? Reports on the peace deal were that Ukraine had agreed to this point. Also “We might get invaded/bombed in the future” is a strictly better outcome than “we are being bombed right now”

So instead of affirming your sovereignity and your ties to the West, you would cut your ties? I think it has proven useful to have those ties when the invasion is on. If it doesn't come to an invasion, Russia kills you slowly with a strong embrace.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#152

Post by mcv »

notorandit wrote: post #130
fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

Sweden doesn't neighbour with Russia. Only Finland and Norway!

They both border the Baltic Sea. Russian fighters frequently violate Swedish air space. They're close enough to matter.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#153

Post by KptMarchewa »

alkonaut wrote: post #124
whimsicalism wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is not just about Russia. To me, suggesting that Sweden is somehow more strategically important than Turkey is foreign policy illiterate. Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden, they are actively involved in being a buffer for conflicts in the Middle East, and they have an advanced military manufacturing capability that they have used to supply Ukraine and others with military drones. They also have su…

> NATO is not just about Russia. Not only, but for the most part....It's about Russia. > Turkey brings a military ~30x the size of Sweden On the other hand Sweden and Finland at 2% GDP has a similar defense budget to Turkey. Money does not a military make, but "30x the size" is only counting manpower and not much else. Modern fighter aircraft is around a factor 2x rather than 30x, for example. > a buffer for conflict…

>Turkey has long been the champion of secularism in the area, and obviosuly everyone in NATO (and elsewhere) hopes that will remain the case, hence one is reluctant to push Turkey away too.

Exactly. With all the faults of current Turkish government, they are a mile ahead of everyone else in Middle East. The problem is the comparison: they were going forward with EU membership - their government just was way more sane in the past... And there's decent chance that Erdogan will be voted out in 2023.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_T...

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#154

Post by gwbas1c »

actionfromafar wrote: post #29
qiskit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. They are the most indepedentest of the independent. They only serve one lunatic dictator and his family. And developed nuclear weapons against the wishes of US, china and russia. Can't get more independent than that. It's a country that literally starved itself to stay independent.

NK exists at the behest of China. China wants a buffer between it and South Korea. If that wish were to change, I'd expect NK to be either gobbled up by China or allowed to rejoin with SK.

> or allowed to rejoin with SK

Who's preventing it from rejoining South Korea? I can infer that China wants it as a buffer to South Korea; but how can China disallow it from joining South Korea?

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#155

Post by toopok4k3 »

throw-nocoiner wrote: post #84

The way Sweden and Finland admission process unfolded makes a complete mockery of democracy Rushed, decided behind closed doors, by a small clique of elites, without any semblance of democratic mandate, unconstitutional, no real public debate, no referendum, all in an atmosphere of McCarthy-like media frenzy. Any nuance is instantly brushed aside as Putin's propaganda The polls put the support at ~52% in Sweden and ~…

You lie, or have no idea what has been discussed in Finland for the past few months. The public has given a very clear mandate to join NATO ASAP.

Here's the latest poll news from 2022-05-09. "Yes" at 76%. https://yle.fi/news/3-12437506

And additional interesting bits, both the president have backed joining, and Sweden is joining NATO too: "A possible Swedish application for Nato membership would raise backing in Finland to 83 percent.

A clear position by the Finnish president and the government backing membership raise support by around the same margin, to 82 percent."

Meaning the support to join is overwhelmingly in majority.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#156

Post by lillecarl »

notorandit wrote: post #130
fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

Sweden doesn't neighbour with Russia. Only Finland and Norway!

I don't share a border with everyone whom I consider a neighbor, being close enough is good enough for me.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#157

Post by tuukkah »

xhevahir wrote: post #142
tuukkah wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone else leaves NATO and sets up NATO2 where Sweden and Finland are members but Turkey is not.

That sounds like a very big and complicated undertaking, both politically and militarily. Turkey has NATO's second-largest army, for one thing.

Perhaps it's more important to have Turkey in NATO than Sweden and Finland, but I honestly don't know. I hear Finland has a strong army and it's useful to have all of the Baltic Sea countries in NATO.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#158

Post by bsedlm »

fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

unless said neighbor is the current hegemonic nation, in which case you better make sure you buy/sell oil in dollars and that your national bank is independent from your government (you know, just to be safe).

i.e. if the USA invades sovereign nations then it makes sense to be in good terms with them.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#159

Post by eschulz »

jmyeet wrote: post #150

So let's recount what Putin has achieved in the last 3 months: 1. Failed to conquer all of Ukraine; 2. Failed to capture Kyiv; 3. Failed to make meaningful gains in the Donbass; 4. Failed to decapitate Ukraine's leadership; 5. Suffered huge casulaties; 6. Done massive damage to the perception of Russia's military (and thus the power it can project); 7. Done more for NATO solidarity than probably anything else in the…

I agree. The Putin regime has paid such an enormous price over the last three months that I'm now concerned they might take egregious and insane steps at any time. These steps would be to save face, and I think they can in part be avoided if the regime could somehow package together something that they can sell as a victory to the Russian people and their sympathizers abroad.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#160

Post by theshrike79 »

Hamuko wrote: post #144
notorandit wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden doesn't neighbour with Russia. Only Finland and Norway!

Which is probably the secret sauce for their "neutrality" during WWII. It's easier to "not choose sides" when Finland is slowing down the Soviets in the east, and Norway/Denmark slowing down the Nazis in the west and south. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/WWII_in_...

Also it was really easy for Sweden to defund their military, when they have Finland protecting the east :)
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