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Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

nature.com

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Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#151

Post by barry-cotter »

astrange wrote: post #141
barry-cotter wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that is true. How does it relate to the possibility or not of large differences between human populations? Interbreeding will reduce variation extremely quickly but we know reproductive isolation was very high between continents for a very long time. Even individual villages in India have jatis that have been living next to each other for centuries that haven’t interbred for over 1,000 years.

Genes run in families, not villages. How are the traits spreading across the entire population in that 1000 years enough to make the "large difference" instead of being averaged out again? Existing cases of that are founder effects or mating with someone truly different like a Denisovan[0]. More importantly this knowledge would be useless if you found it, because the only reason to know things is to make predictions,…

> How are the traits spreading across the entire population in that 1000 years enough to make the "large difference" instead of being averaged out again?

Mating isn’t random. People are more likely to mate with those who live near them. So Southern Chinese are more like each other than Northern Chinese. Geography matters. Distance matters. If there’s reproductive isolation difference can emerge and persist. If there isn’t it won’t.

Geography isn’t the only way populations stay distinct. Religion, language, means of sustenance can do it too but interbreeding can reduce difference very, very quickly as you note.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#152

Post by cameronh90 »

TameAntelope wrote: post #21
bpodgursky wrote: post #11

This is one of those studies where the conclusion is so obviously wrong that I don't even want to open it, and it makes me discount the credibility of Nature overall.

Trusting your gut over a paper published in Nature. Bold move! Some people would use this as a moment to question what they know about dog breeds, but you choose to double down on your beliefs. Very human of you! [0][1][2][3] [0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-pathways-experie... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance [2] http://aphilosopher.drmcl.com/2015/12/11/doubling-down/ [3] https://…

If a study came out showing the sky was purple, would you believe it or would you look out the window?

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#153

Post by onphonenow »

InitialLastName wrote: post #26
onphonenow wrote: post #17

This is such a weird turn in new science. For hundreds of years folks breed dogs for various traits. Labs are friendly (and not great guard dogs). Greyhounds can run fast and like to chase. Pitbulls can use their strong bite and a shake behavior to devastating effect. And the list goes on. Now we have nature coming out with a study that shows breed does NOT predict behavior? What's interesting is I'm not sure some br…

They aren't saying that there's no physical differences in dogs' capabilities. Pits can bite and shake because they have ridiculous jaws and a powerful build. If a miniature poodle tried, it wouldn't have much effect. The reporting on this is also sketchier than the science; the honest headline "Study of pet dogs shows breed is imperfectly predictive of behavior", which could be confirmed by anyone with multiple dogs…

9% predictive? This seems very low.

I hope folks who actually have dogs pay a LOT more attention to what their dogs breed is and what it needs. Some dogs, based on their breed, need a ton of outside time. Some do not handle being on their own very well and need to be with people or other dogs. Some become very protective and can become dangerous in various ways.

PLEASE do not believe this can be ignored.

Did they even talk to anyone working with dogs?

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#154

Post by nopassrecover »

mythrwy wrote: post #72
synaesthesisx wrote: post #29

To be frank, this "study" is absurd & invalid, and there is 100% an association between breed and behavior (we literally breed dogs for certain behavioral traits!). On that topic, I realize it's controversial but think pitbulls should be banned outright - they are responsible for the majority of fatal dog-related attacks and there is a wealth of evidence indicating that they are not a desirable breed. https://www.red…

I agreed with you on Pits but about a year ago one came to my house, no collar or tags so I kept him while trying to find owner. Which of course I never did. Shelter is about at capacity here and most of these kind of dogs are put down which I didn't want to see. This dog was young (maybe 3) and friendly. My old border collie was bored and lonely and was very happy to have another dog. They get along great. Old borde…

What a beautiful story, thanks for sharing!

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#155

Post by etempleton »

defen wrote: post #47
tkahnoski wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots more details from the authors on twitter. https://twitter.com/eenork/status/1520450288095797251

The author says "We found no support for policies targeting particular breeds" [1] which is completely absurd even if you postulate that their study's results were even stronger than they are. Imagine that their study found zero correlation between breeds and behavior. Even if that were the case, the outcomes of that behavior are wildly different. Some breeds will bite you and not even break skin. Some breeds will bi…

Never leave a child alone with any unknown dog. Or really any dog known or not. Children have the bad habit of getting in dogs faces, pulling their ears, etc and don’t always understand a dogs warninings.

Yes, a bigger, stronger dog has the potential for more damage if it becomes aggressive. Funny you use chihuahua as a counter example, because their reputation is for aggression. A chihuahua is less dangerous because it is smaller not because it is inherently less aggressive.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#156

Post by barry-cotter »

tsol wrote: post #146
barry-cotter wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying there are differences in (pick a trait, any trait). I’m saying that anyone who tells you that differences don’t exist has to prove it. Rice farming is a very different way of life to pastoralist is very different to hoe agriculture is very different to hunting and gathering. Some populations have been following the ~same lifestyle for over a thousand years. There’s no principled reason that can’t cause…

>Religion works on faith. Scientists bring facts. What does religion have to do with this? I didn't say to to rely on faith, rely on the scientific institution that already came to a concensus a long time ago. The studies are out there, if you want to see proof. Just because I don't have them on hand doesn't mean they don't exist and need to be taken on faith

> Just because both circumstances can exert selective pressure does not mean they are the same.

Selective pressure makes change. Different selective pressure makes difference. Reproductive isolation makes large differences possible. Humans have lived in very different environments and been reproductively isolated. There is no a priori reason to believe human populations are the same on every trait. And they’re not. Similar on most things but not on everything.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#157

Post by etempleton »

thephyber wrote: post #106
randomblast wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I wouldn't let a 6 year old play unsupervised with any dog. That would be incredibly irresponsible, and has lead to innumerable unnecessary child & dog deaths. Would you leave a 6 year old unsupervised with a hungry rat? No - what a stupid question. A chihuahua can cause the same degree of injury (life-altering). Is there a significant difference in behaviour between a pitbull and a chihuahua? No - this study con…

I’m not a fan of breed-specific legislation, but I’m more amenable to breed-selective homeowner insurance[1]. Interestingly most people misunderstand what a “pit bull” is. There are a few very similar breeds: - American Pit Bull Terrier - Staffordshire Bull Terrier - American Staffordshire Terrier - American Bully In my experience, most people don’t specify which they mean, so they don’t actually care about the “bree…

Another statistical problem is almost any mutt that looks vaguely like a terrier labeled a “Pitt bull type.”

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#158

Post by InitialLastName »

onphonenow wrote: post #153
InitialLastName wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't saying that there's no physical differences in dogs' capabilities. Pits can bite and shake because they have ridiculous jaws and a powerful build. If a miniature poodle tried, it wouldn't have much effect. The reporting on this is also sketchier than the science; the honest headline "Study of pet dogs shows breed is imperfectly predictive of behavior", which could be confirmed by anyone with multiple dogs…

9% predictive? This seems very low. I hope folks who actually have dogs pay a LOT more attention to what their dogs breed is and what it needs. Some dogs, based on their breed, need a ton of outside time. Some do not handle being on their own very well and need to be with people or other dogs. Some become very protective and can become dangerous in various ways. PLEASE do not believe this can be ignored. Did they eve…

A 1/10 chance that a member of any given breed exhibits any given behavior based on breed doesn't seem unreasonable given a) how granular the behaviors are (they include "eating grass"), so there are a large number of specific behaviors that might all fit a larger pattern but which any given dog might or might not exhibit, b) that they included mixes, who you would expect to be less likely to fit a breed's specific behaviors, and c) the 9% predictiveness is on top of a base rate of exhibiting the behavior regardless of breed.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#159

Post by more_corn »

This is obviously wrong to anyone who has observed dogs. Some breeds are much more vocal. My boxer would only bark to communicate (she’d bark once to be let in. Only ever twice if she didn’t hear you getting up). I’ve never seen anyone else’s boxer bark. Some breeds are hugely vocal. Hounds for example because sounding is beneficial for hunting. We literally breed dogs for certain behaviors. You can see a sheep dog’s instinctive herding behavior. You can watch a bird dog breed point having never seen the behavior before. Goldens are absurd key attention seeking. Chows very territorial.

You can literally see these things with your own eyes. Science means looking at the evidence. The evidence is all around us.

Sometimes science shows us bias and misconception. This time I beg to differ.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#160

Post by cameronh90 »

loceng wrote: post #32
synaesthesisx wrote: post #29

To be frank, this "study" is absurd & invalid, and there is 100% an association between breed and behavior (we literally breed dogs for certain behavioral traits!). On that topic, I realize it's controversial but think pitbulls should be banned outright - they are responsible for the majority of fatal dog-related attacks and there is a wealth of evidence indicating that they are not a desirable breed. https://www.red…

Indeed, there are intuitive or instinctual behaviours different breeds have - of course they can learn other behaviours from observing other dogs, and training can reduce or suppress instincts to some degree as well. Context matters too, so if the environment doesn't match what their instincts would lead them to do don't have the opportunity to get triggered then you're not going to see them, at least not as often or…

Agree RE herding. I've seen a Collie that has never even seen a sheep try to instinctively herd a bunch of school kids. It just came naturally.

My Golden Retriever on the other hand won't even chase a squirrel. He has finally learnt to guard my rabbits from the foxes, but it took a lot of training.

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