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The True Cost of Commuting

mrmoneymustache.com

151–160 of 178 posts

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#151
post #110

All of this assumes that a 30-something professional couple with two earners can actually both find (and keep) jobs within biking distance of a home they can reasonable afford. My experience, along with my fiancee, having lived and worked in 3 different major US cities in the past 5 years, is that assumption just isn't reasonable. It's hard enough to find two good jobs in a household in the same _CITY_ right now, muc…

> The only way you can have both high job density and moderate housing prices close together is to allow enough vertical construction to reduce competition for housing to reasonable levels. I think this is a pipe dream, unfortunately. How could you sell such an idea to the existing homeowner who comprise the voting base?

Increasing density and preventing further sprawl drives up real estate values in general and greatly benefits the existing homeowner. If you can take a plot allocated to a single-family dwelling, and put ten apartments on it, it's worth more yet rents for less.

In my view, the forces behind not allowing more vertical building are really developers who want more sprawl, because they want to buy up unused land at the fringes of a city and build houses on it rather than have to assemble blocks from existing neighborhoods.

The unfortunate answer in all this is that the best way to reduce commuting is to make it harder to commute. Don't build more roads to subsidize long commutes, make work parking more expensive, and favor public transport in allocation of lanes and space. Europe is already doing this, and some cities in the US (like San Francisco) are also doing it to some degree.

I suspect, however, that we won't really get serious about it here in the US until gas hits about $15 a gallon.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#152
post #149
post #68

It's amazing how many excuses people manage to come up with for how it's impossible for them to follow this kind of advice. Turns out, it's impossible up until the point that you just shut up and start doing it. Sweating is only a problem for most of you because you're unhealthy and overweight. You're overweight because you get no exercise. It's okay: I was too. Then I started cycling to work and lost 50lb. Now sweat…

i'm pretty sure that if you do not sweat after a 20min ride that covers 7.5mi, you should seek a doctor. Urgently. ...or you are luck to live on the top a hill and work in a dried lake bed.

Ya, that's 22.5 mph. That's on the pretty high end already on flat ground. When you factor in traffic lights, he has to go even faster. At such a power level (2x that of riding a moderate 16 mph), I can't see how he wouldn't be breathing hard and sweating a lot.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#153
post #68

It's amazing how many excuses people manage to come up with for how it's impossible for them to follow this kind of advice. Turns out, it's impossible up until the point that you just shut up and start doing it. Sweating is only a problem for most of you because you're unhealthy and overweight. You're overweight because you get no exercise. It's okay: I was too. Then I started cycling to work and lost 50lb. Now sweat…

Interesting. Everything I've heard, and my own experience, indicates the fitter you are, the more readily you sweat. One example, from the guy who coaches Lance Armstrong: http://www.trainrightblog.com/2011/03/28/chris-carmichael-bl...

To a degree. Initially as you lose weight, riding at X mph will require less power (moving a lighter object!), so you will sweat less.

But once you reach a reasonable weight and are just gaining muscle and cardio power, added fitness level just allows you to emit more power for longer. But sweat levels are pretty much just related to power (how much heat you generate) - and of course cooling.

At Grandparent's speed (22.5 mph) on flat ground, he's going to produce massive power to overcome air resistance. The effective fan will help cool him down/dissipate sweat, but especially in body areas that don't get such a good air blast, he will end up soaked.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#154

I'm a hater of long commutes (happily with a 1.5 mile one right now), but some of the analysis is flawed: 1) Commuting cost. The $0.17 as a minimum marginal cost per mile is reasonable. The IRS' $0.51 really can't be used as a margnal rate. Simply put, the operating cost of a car is not a linear function of mileage. There are exceptionally high fixed costs, namely depreciation, insurance, (some) maintenance and regis…

Yes, the 6 minutes per mile thing seemed weird to me. I live and work in SF now, but I used to work in Santa Clara, and I would do the drive in about 40 minutes -- just about 1 minute per mile. I drove at non-peak times, and my off-highway time was usually no more than about 10 minutes.

Then I started working in San Mateo... half the distance, but usually 25-30 minutes. Off-highway time increased, and on-highway decreased. Still, though, a far cry from 6 min/mile.

But I'm so much happier now that my commute involves only 6 blocks of walking and a 20 minute bus ride. I can even read on the bus! It's great, though the lack of control over my transportation still bothers me.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#155
post #43
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested in the history of that. Homeownership seems very American to me, but subsidizes not so much [1]. And books or links, that you can recommend? [1] I'm aware there are many subsidizes in the US, for instance in agriculture. Still, it seems to be less than in Europe. There are subsidizes for homeownership in Germany but more people live in rented accommodation.

The biggest difference between the US and somewhere like Germany is the price of land. While land can be expensive in certain highly desireable places, it is possible to buy habitable land in the US for what is a derisory amount of money to a European - often less than $1,000 per acre. This drives the cost of home ownership down to levels that can be aspired to by many people. There is a lot of homebuilding as a resu…

An acre is ridiculously large for building a house on. 1/10th of an acre is what an average Belgian free-standing house is build on these days, in the Netherlands it's even smaller.

I'd jump at any chance to buy an acre of land zoned for residential construction for only 100k, even in the most 'rural' areas here ('rural' being relative, even very rural here is still suburban by US standards).

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweating is only a problem for most of you because you're unhealthy and overweight. Maybe for you... but I've always been quite fit, never overweight at all, but biking to work on a warm sunny day is a guaranteed way to arrive looking like I just stepped out of a shower with my clothes on. Heck, I can stand still in humid 90 degree heat in the sun, and be drenched after twenty minutes. Plus, most of us don't have sho…

Perhaps try leaving a few sets of smarts in the office drawer, for the occasional day when it isn't so hot & humid and do the cycle just a couple of times a week. You will notice a difference :)

Exactly: remember Don Draper in Mad Men? Pile of crisp shirts in the desk drawer for those occasions when he'd stayed out all night & had to look presentable the next day.

(Not saying you should emulate DD otherwise mind!)

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#157
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers should locate in sustainable, dense, transit-friendly neighborhoods They should, I guess. * Rent is going to be steep in a place like that. I worked for a concern that took space in a very nice office building. Wood paneling! We had a walled lawn with trees outside. Offices, not cubes. Rent was far more than the generic building across the street. It was great until we had to cut costs when the economy tank…

Rent is only steep because the supply far outstrips the demand for these neighborhoods. The government heavily subsidizes the incentives that make low density so economically attractive, skewing the construction and real estate industries towards those ends, even with the high demand. It's much cheaper to deliver services such as utilities and police/fire protection to high density areas, but low density areas pay th…

Industry took place at the center of the city alongside professional jobs. It's only relatively recently that it's been economical to locate distribution & light industrial jobs in dedicated, industrial zoned areas,

We put industry in dedicated areas because living next to a factory that runs 24/7 is unpleasant.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#158
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Around here in CT, it's fairly common to have a one hour train ride commute to Manhattan. Sure it is better than driving, but it still is pretty soul sucking according to my friends who have done it.

It's even worse going the other way because the trains aren't as frequent - or at least they weren't back then. I used to commute from Brooklyn to Darien, CT. I'd leave home at about 6:00 am and get there just around 8:30. After about 2 months, I'd had enough...

Here here. I thought the reverse commute out of Manhattan wasn't too bad. Subsequently, I experienced first hand how utterly soul sucking it is.

On top of that, it isn't cheap! When you commute out of grand central in the morning, you pay a peak fare.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#159
post #72
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I was about (sic) to bicycle commute at least 4 days a week all winter long" I think you also have to factor in safety. You will inevitably take chances over time and one of those chances could lead to an injury that keeps you from working or gives you lifelong pain. Either from a mistake you make or from someone in a car or bus. (Of course this can happen in dry weather as well...) Statistically you can also use th…

Don't have any stats to back this up, but driving is probably just as unsafe.

That feels counter intuitive.

In a car one has restraints, a lot of armor to absorb impact, airbags. On a bike you've got ... a helmet.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#160
post #68

It's amazing how many excuses people manage to come up with for how it's impossible for them to follow this kind of advice. Turns out, it's impossible up until the point that you just shut up and start doing it. Sweating is only a problem for most of you because you're unhealthy and overweight. You're overweight because you get no exercise. It's okay: I was too. Then I started cycling to work and lost 50lb. Now sweat…

Sweating is only a problem for most of you because you're unhealthy and overweight I don't know about that; body chemistries are very different. But more importantly, it sounds like you live in a place with reasonably cool, dry air. Some of us don't have that privilege. It's good advice, don't get me wrong. I myself lead a largely carless life in -- of all places, rather improbably -- downtown Atlanta, and walk about…

Actually, I live in Atlanta. It's really not as bad as you think — cycling generates wind, which keeps you cool. You don't have to expend more energy on a bike than you would otherwise on your walk. So if you can manage to walk without sweating, you can likely bike it without issue.

I agree with the body chemistry bit, though. Some people just can't do it, one way or another. But for the majority of people, it's just an excuse. And it's a convenient one because they frequently are already unhealthy or overweight.

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