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The True Cost of Commuting

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Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#61

Post by artmageddon »

barrkel wrote: post #52
mahyarm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you worried about the higher likelihood of death (4x) and injury (6x) on motorcycles?

Not really, no; for several reasons. You need to pick apart those statistics and look at risk factors (e.g. breaking limits, laws, alcohol) and also weigh up how much fun it is. Skydiving is dangerous but fun - I did it for a year, but ultimately it wasn't for me. Climbing mountains is dangerous, but there's a huge sense of accomplishment involved. Riding a motorbike is similar: there's less risk than the previous, b…

>You've got to die sometime. You only have a short time on this planet. Do you want to live fearfully and protect all that you have until your grave (when you'll lose it all anyway), or do you want to go out and live a little?

This is pretty much my argument whenever someone takes objection to me flying small airplanes.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#62

Post by ronnier »

bokchoi wrote: post #60
ronnier wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Kirkland and work at Amazon.

Avoid the lake and move. I was much happier after I left MSFT and reduced my commute to 12 minutes.

I prefer the east side for my two kids. My wife also likes it. If it was just me, I'd have no problem living in Seattle.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#63

Post by tlholaday »

bdunbar wrote: post #2

In an earlier life, I lived in the Dallas area. Moving to be near work sounds great, but it would not have been practical. - I lived there for nine years. My average tenure was 18 months for each employer: Laid-off, right-sized, down-sized. Finding a new house for each new employer would have been costly. - One employer was way the heck out by the airport. There were no houses within biking distance. Or not ones I co…

Mr. Moustache's analysis of the cost of an automotive commute remains valid, even if the automotive commute is necessary.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#64

Post by melling »

cletus wrote: post #27

The problems with long commutes all revolve around home ownership. People want big houses on big yards. Most can't afford that close to work, which means they make the economic choice to trade the commute time for that "dream". That's fine but the problem is that government subsidizes that dream to a ridiculous degree. Urban sprawl has a huge cost in infrastructure, largely borne by the taxpayer. Low-density urban sp…

There are a couple of places in the US where there is enough population density to make mass transit work. Unfortunately no one wants to spend the money to improve it. Train and bus travel is painfully slow. Commuter rail travel, for example, averages about 30-40 mph, at best. If that doubled, people could commute from "great distances", or simply live 40 miles from a major city and have a 30 minute commute. Is the problem really that hard to solve?

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#65

Post by radu_floricica »

mahyarm wrote: post #37
barrkel wrote: post #23

I work from home, but I still "commute" to get a fresh breakfast every morning - by scooter. It is such a joy to ride a scooter in London traffic that I deliberately go to much farther shops just to extend the amount of time I'm zooming past the traffic... Quite frugal on fuel (I get about 70 MPG, but I ride a fast 300cc scooter and don't have a light throttle hand), and I can do most regular maintenance (oil & filte…

Aren't you worried about the higher likelihood of death (4x) and injury (6x) on motorcycles?

In Western Europe at least people tend to use protective gear on scooters. So inside the city you're likely to be riding at close-to-bicycle speeds, but with a motorcycle helmet and an armored jacket. Even if you do fall (and you are indeed likely to fall with a scooter) you're probably safer then on a bicycle.

Plus there's a bit of a story with those statistics. Death is way over the charts if you ride either under the influence, or without a helmet. Take away this, and also take away the larger number of accidents which happen in the first year of riding, and you're no longer at 4x.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#66

Post by fhars »

frossie wrote: post #43
FrojoS wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested in the history of that. Homeownership seems very American to me, but subsidizes not so much [1]. And books or links, that you can recommend? [1] I'm aware there are many subsidizes in the US, for instance in agriculture. Still, it seems to be less than in Europe. There are subsidizes for homeownership in Germany but more people live in rented accommodation.

The biggest difference between the US and somewhere like Germany is the price of land. While land can be expensive in certain highly desireable places, it is possible to buy habitable land in the US for what is a derisory amount of money to a European - often less than $1,000 per acre. This drives the cost of home ownership down to levels that can be aspired to by many people. There is a lot of homebuilding as a resu…

Your price for buildable land in Europe is way off. The average price for land that is ready to build on in germany is around 129€ ( http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/In... ), resulting in about $700,000/acre. Towns are quite a bit more expensive.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#67

Post by seigenblues »

barrkel wrote: post #52
mahyarm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you worried about the higher likelihood of death (4x) and injury (6x) on motorcycles?

Not really, no; for several reasons. You need to pick apart those statistics and look at risk factors (e.g. breaking limits, laws, alcohol) and also weigh up how much fun it is. Skydiving is dangerous but fun - I did it for a year, but ultimately it wasn't for me. Climbing mountains is dangerous, but there's a huge sense of accomplishment involved. Riding a motorbike is similar: there's less risk than the previous, b…

Very good point about the statistics. If you really try to drive a motorcycle safely, (e.g., not drunk, not too fast), the statistics practically describe a different cohort.

Motorcycling is easily one of the best things i've done, it puts a smile on my face every time i go out. Cheers!

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#68

Post by stouset »

It's amazing how many excuses people manage to come up with for how it's impossible for them to follow this kind of advice. Turns out, it's impossible up until the point that you just shut up and start doing it.

Sweating is only a problem for most of you because you're unhealthy and overweight. You're overweight because you get no exercise. It's okay: I was too. Then I started cycling to work and lost 50lb. Now sweating's not a problem, and I can go significantly faster without showing up to work drenched.

On my old commute (7.5mi), I ended up getting it down to 20 minutes once I got in shape. Time to drive? 20 minutes. Except instead of arriving to work tired and pissed off, I would show up alert, awake, and having enjoyed some time out in the sun doing something fun. It completely changed my mindset at work, and got me off to a much better foot every morning.

Showering isn't a problem. Again, go slower until sweating is no longer an issue, then increase your speed to a point that you can still get to work without being drenched. If you still show up wet, or if you're wet from rain, bring a change of clothes. I infrequently had to, but it's not that hard to ride in wearing cycling clothing (which will, incidentally, keep you much drier) and bring a change of clothes with you. Go into the bathroom, change, and be on with your day. It takes less time than it would to find a parking spot for your SUV anyway.

Weather is, again, not a big deal. We as humans have invented clothing for all sorts of weather conditions, intersected with the requirements of all sorts of physical activities. Cycling is no exception. There's cycling clothing for rain, for cold, and for rain _and_ cold. It costs equivalent to about a week's worth of driving for you 30-minute commuters. Less if your commute is longer.

I mean, come on. Hacker News is a site supposedly full of entrepreneurial go-getters. And yet this guy gives you a way to save hundreds of thousands of dollars, your time, and your sanity, and all I hear is griping about how minor inconveniences make it completely impossible. Yeah, some of you are trapped between a rock and a hard place. Some of you are already owning impossible-to-sell property forty miles out in the 'burbs. But for the rest of you, quit making excuses and just give it a try — it's seriously not as hard or inconvenient as you're making it out to be.

Who knows? Maybe the next time your apartment is up for renewal you'll find yourself moving closer to the city rather than farther away for once. And you won't ever look back.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#69

Post by wccrawford »

dasil003 wrote: post #25
wccrawford wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, here we go. "And it also doesn’t count as using up your personal time because it is adding something that nobody except Olympic athletes is doing enough of anyway – exercise. You can take your 10 minute bike ride directly out of time you would have otherwise spent in the gym, or waiting in the doctor’s office for prescription medication." I was wondering how he managed to eliminate that from his calculations. He…

There are a lot of problems with driving too: parking, traffic jams, cost, etc, but you are conditioned to take those for granted. As a full-time bicycle commuter I have to say that your complaints are more minor inconveniences than serious problems. Do I have to shower after biking 9 miles to work? No, a change of clothes is sufficient. Am I limited to where I can go to lunch? Not compared to my colleagues who mostl…

Then it works for you. Congrats! I really enjoyed it whenever it worked for me.

But most of the time it did not.

And no, I'm not too conditioned to take the driving problems for granted. I really, really, really hate them. I go to great lengths to avoid them. But my solution to them wasn't a bike: It was living somewhere that didn't have them.

There's no traffic to or from work. There no problem parking, as everywhere near my work and home has free, open parking lots. There isn't much cost, because I don't drive far. (Remember that I need the car for shopping and errands anyhow, so that cost is sunk. It's also well-kept, low-mileage and cheap.)

So in trying to refute me, you haven't proven me wrong. I was refuting the article, and proving that every situation is different. You came along and proved the exact same thing.

Re: The True Cost of Commuting

#70

Post by checker »

melling wrote: post #64
cletus wrote: post #27

The problems with long commutes all revolve around home ownership. People want big houses on big yards. Most can't afford that close to work, which means they make the economic choice to trade the commute time for that "dream". That's fine but the problem is that government subsidizes that dream to a ridiculous degree. Urban sprawl has a huge cost in infrastructure, largely borne by the taxpayer. Low-density urban sp…

There are a couple of places in the US where there is enough population density to make mass transit work. Unfortunately no one wants to spend the money to improve it. Train and bus travel is painfully slow. Commuter rail travel, for example, averages about 30-40 mph, at best. If that doubled, people could commute from "great distances", or simply live 40 miles from a major city and have a 30 minute commute. Is the p…

I commuted 27 miles (straight line) via commuter rail and it took me 1.5 hours each way. Rent was free (I lived at my parents) but it was tough. I was surprised by how long it took, and by the number of service interruptions that made the trip even longer!

I am now happily working 1.2 miles from home.

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