Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#151

Post by johnny22 » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:00 PM UTC

warner_of_doom wrote: post #147

kashunstva wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am convinced that my country started this entire episode Unequivocally the government of the Russian Federation is the aggressor here. That the United States has been inconsistent with respect to Ukraine doesn't diminish the fact that the military of the Russian Federation is actively shelling hospitals, schools, residential dwellings and precipitating a humanitarian crisis in Europe.

No. Not unequivocally. Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Zelenskyy ran on peace with Russia, but his puppet masters in Washington would never have allowed that. So, by late-2021, do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acqu…

unless ukraine was actually going to attack russia (and even then really re: preemptive war), none of that makes a difference.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#152

Post by chucklenorris » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:03 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #30

empressplay wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Canadian. As a Canadian I am fully aware that my country exists strictly at the whim of the US. If we were to decide to form a military alliance with Russia, hosting Russian troops on our soil, Canada would be invaded by the US in a New York minute. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. It sucks of course but it is what it is. That is all he is saying.

The problem is, what do you do when people really really want to change geopolitical circumstances and jump over to the other alliance? Refuse their company and tell them to GTFO to abusive neighbour they're tired of? And then watch on 24/7 news channel how is it going?

if that neighbor can end life on earth, cockroaches notwithstanding, then yes, please pass the popcorn

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#153

Post by torbTurret » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

warner_of_doom wrote: post #147

kashunstva wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am convinced that my country started this entire episode Unequivocally the government of the Russian Federation is the aggressor here. That the United States has been inconsistent with respect to Ukraine doesn't diminish the fact that the military of the Russian Federation is actively shelling hospitals, schools, residential dwellings and precipitating a humanitarian crisis in Europe.

No. Not unequivocally. Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Zelenskyy ran on peace with Russia, but his puppet masters in Washington would never have allowed that. So, by late-2021, do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acqu…

No trace of irony that your response included the words, “take back Crimea.”

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#154

Post by credit_guy » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world.

That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained by Mearsheimer's framework; he's not a madman (necessarily). But to say that what Russia is doing is somehow US's fault, that really does not make any sense.

US and NATO do whatever is in their best interest, and that implicitly means they will try to reduce Russia's power. Russia knows that. In turn, Russia will try to reduce NATO's and US's power (and increase their own). That's all rational. Now, to say that the US and NATO have to have some form of guilt, and they should change their actions, that's crazy, it does not make any sense.

To say that the US, or NATO, or Russia, or anyone else is hypocritical, or they say one thing and do another, well, welcome to politics. "Not one inch", said NATO some decades ago. Russia calls foul play. Well, what did they think? People say one thing and do another thing all the time, that's the way you play the game.

But, one thing is to not keep your word about this or that, another thing is to start killing people. By the thousands. And destroy their homes. And make them leave their countries. Is really Mearsheimer incapable of understanding this difference?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#155

Post by shkkmo » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

steveylang wrote: post #93

shkkmo wrote: post #27

> We should be pivoting out of Europe to deal with China in a laser-like fashion, number one. And, number two, we should be working overtime to create friendly relations with the Russians. The Russians are part of our balancing coalition against China. If you live in a world where there are three great powers—China, Russia, and the United States—and one of those great powers, China, is a peer competitor, what you wan…

Could we actually forge a tight alliance with Russia, while maintaining our alliances in western Europe? In strictly political terms, I'll side with Germany, France, UK, etc. which all have bigger GDP's than Russia.

In recent geo-politics, we have generally pushed Europe away from Russia, rather than the other way around.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#156

Post by BitwiseFool » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:07 PM UTC

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason.

For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 moment. The United States should have clearly recognized that trying to get Ukraine into NATO or even the EU was clearly going to make the Russians think they're being backed into a corner security-wise. We could have just as easily kept trading with Ukraine and cooperating without starting the process to join NATO.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#157

Post by credit_guy » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

> We are literally sacrificing their country

A little correction though: you need to replace "we" with "Russia", or "Putin".

Fully agree with "This is just wrong" part.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#158

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:15 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #34

boomboomsubban wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This seems too forgiving of Russia and also the US re: Central and South America. He seems to be saying that Russia/the US reaction is probably morally wrong, but completely expected behavior. And the moral aspect isn't worth considering as history has shown that great powers usually act out of strategic interest not moral consideration. Yeah, it'd be great if great power politics ended. Ukraine trying to change to…

> And the moral aspect isn't worth considering as history has shown that great powers usually act out of strategic interest not moral consideration If you are trying to decide how to exert influence on how your country should react, rather than being a passive observer, the moral aspect is worth considering. If you are merely a passive observer, you aren't worth considering.

[deleted]

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#159

Post by avasylev » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:15 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #134

avasylev wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Would you please omit swipes like "Not sure why I even bother replying" and "What are you talking about?" from your posts to HN? You've been breaking the site guidelines frequently in your recent comments. I realize emotions are naturally very intense for everyone right now, but this is not ok. Indeed, it's a reason to follow the site guidelines more carefully. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.…

Thanks for pointing, didn't realize that.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#160

Post by 331c8c71 » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:17 PM UTC

timeon wrote: post #137

As someone from Central and Eastern Europe - blaming U.S. or 'west' is just cope mechanism for some people in the west. "If we did this or that differently Russia would not attack". Well that may be just wishful thinking. But they haven`t realized that we are sovereign countries and it is not Russian business where we want to belong. Just ours. These so called "realists" haven`t considered one simple fact. Ukraine wa…

> Just ours.

I understand your sentiment.

The point is that in case of Ukraine the pro-russian half of the population did not want to be governed by us-installed government who started their reign by changing the language legislature in favor of the ukranian language. The anti-russian political tilt resulted in federalisation demands from the eastern regions as well as crimea which progressed into full-blown separatism (eventually supported by russia).

I believe it is quite immoral to blame Russia for supporting pro-russian separatists when the federal government installed by the US was effectively nationalistic.