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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#151

Post by bloak »

buzzdenver wrote: post #142
bloak wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Yes, it would be clear if you define "Russian". Do you mean everyone who currently holds a Russian passport? Everyone who has at some point held a Russian passport? What about someone who used to have a Soviet passport with their nationality recorded in it as "Russian" but who didn't live in Russia? What about people who used to have a Soviet passport and lived in R…

Any chess players who played under the Russian flag before the invasion. I don't know the exact details in chess, but in most sports you have to declare a country when participating in top level sports. For example dual citizens cannot just switch between playing for any country's national team that they are a citizen of.

Cannot "just" switch? What's that mean, exactly? Surely there is some kind of a procedure for people to change their "sports" nationality if they really have emigrated and so on?

(You might think of having a rule that you can only change your "sports" nationality if you "renounce" your previous citizenship, but it many cases it's not possible to "renounce" citizenship: you can let your passport expire, but whatever condition, such as place of birth, allowed you to apply for that passport in the first place would still exist so you would continue to have the option of receiving a passport for the previous country if you ever wanted to apply for one. Moreover, it would be impossible for you to prove you hadn't done that because countries do not, as a rule, issue documents to certify that a given person does not have a valid passport!)

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#152

Post by throw10920 »

lordnacho wrote: post #106
jstx1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.

> Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar.

Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't consider them to be representing Russia in any capacity - they could have been born in India, a French citizen, ethnically Ethiopian, and just given that name by their parents, for all I know.

(and, if I look into them further, and discover that they're a Russian citizen and they're intentionally not playing under a Russian flag, there's no way I'll think that they're representing Russia)

Please find me examples of people who do not believe this, because the idea that "Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though" is both deeply weird and completely illogical to me, and I've never met someone who agrees with it.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#154

Post by mwt »

shagmin wrote: post #91
endisneigh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time o…

Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in between? Aside from that, I kind of view it as a blunt instrument. If there were a way to target Putin and his regime directly within a reasonable amount of risk, I think they'd have chosen that option. In 2014 I think I remember some people under Putin took it as a badge of honor to be on the sanctions…

> Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in between?

Most events, and the general culture, is in a grey area. Outside of the Olympiad which features literal national teams, flags still feature prominently. There's of course wild variance in how nationalistic players feel; some like Karjakin are deeply nationalistic while the average probably feels loosely tied. Some even change associations after conflicts with their country of origin, see young prodigy Firouzja moving from Iran to France recently. I can't think of a comparable international sport to compare it to since I mostly know about American sports. Somebody else that follows chess and i.e. football may be able to make that comparison - AFAIK most players play for national teams during nationalized events but don't wear their country's flag prominently when they play for private clubs.

Each country has its own federation and playing for one's federation is so deeply ingrained in the culture that the solution "well, just play as yourself, not a national" that seems obvious outsiders is something that organizers and players are hesitant to reach for. I think *a* reason for this is that dipping out of a federation prevents you from playing in that country's championship or representing them in the Olympiad, each of which are a big deal to the top players. There are also almost surely other complications in FIDE rules that I'm not aware of. Suffice it to say that playing under the FIDE or ROC flags is not the sort of thing you'd see until recently.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#155

Post by throwaway5754 »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #139
moralestapia wrote: post #118

I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they'r…

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

No post body was provided.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#156

Post by cyanydeez »

wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

ritht,n and do people really think governments should be independent of their citizenship?

you are right, this is sending a message, but its a deeply philosophical message.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#157

Post by nigerian1981 »

wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

What’s the difference between what Russia is doing and America’s illegal invasion of Iraq. Why weren’t American athletes banned?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#158

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway5754 wrote: post #155
throwaway5752 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

Quoted post unavailable.

[deleted]

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#159

Post by [deleted] »

burmanm wrote: post #136
unethical_ban wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian government. They have only one enemy, the Russian government.

> They have only one enemy, the Russian government. Do you think layman thinks the friend is the person who punishes them without them doing anything wrong? I find that seriously difficult to believe. Think about it yourself. You go to a nightclub and then the doorman says only you're not allowed, because your friends who just went in said you're not wanted. Do you still consider them as your friends and just think i…

[deleted]

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#160

Post by pastor_bob »

nigerian1981 wrote: post #157
wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

What’s the difference between what Russia is doing and America’s illegal invasion of Iraq. Why weren’t American athletes banned?

Russians have been carpet bombing innocent Syrians for years. Even using thermobarbic bombs against them, with no sanctioning from the West. Obviously the middle east is of little consequence in these discussions for all parties.
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