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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

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Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#151

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

bobthechef wrote: post #92

N.b. the liberal arts education, trivium, and quadrivium are experiencing a bit of a (modernized) revival, especially in Catholic circles (some examples [0]). Education traditionally was concerned with the formation of human beings as free, rational beings. (The word "liberal" in "liberal arts" refers to freedom, in the authentic sense, and it is contrasted with the "servile arts"). In this sense, modern education is…

> Modern education is Kafkaesque in this regard: things happen, you're told to do some things here, learn some things there, but there is no cogent overarching whole into which everything fits.

You actually think it was ever different? As you note at the start of your next para, "all education systems ..." - there's nothing "modern" about this.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#152

Post by ModernMech »

zhdc1 wrote: post #131
ModernMech wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience?

> On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience? Is there any reason to believe that university is any less formative outside of the states?

Your reply to me is a little vague, so I'm going to go ahead and make the argument I think you're making implicitly, and you can tell me if I'm wrong: Universities overseas are less expensive than in the US, yet the experience is the same, therefore US universities are overpriced. That's certainly a valid point. But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual.

For example for some it's maybe not be overpriced because of scholarships and aid. Or it may not be overpriced because they're rich. Or it may not be overpriced because there are actually very many reasonably priced colleges out there in the USA. Everyone's experience is different, and reducing the entirety of the college experience into "an overpriced 4 year holiday" takes all the nuance out of the issue.

And you know what, despite all the disparaging talk here about college being a "holiday" and a "resort", we really do work these kids hard, at least at my institution. These young minds are out there doing incredible work, engaging in the community, creating art, and doing actual research that will change the world one day. I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I don't know of any other institution that fosters and grows such a concentrated level of achievement at such a young age. Corporations don't do it. Governments don't do it. Local towns don't do it. Churches don't do it. Academia is where people go to explore new ideas and find themselves. Some, especially here on HN, scoff at the idea, but really it leads to magic, and it's hard to deny that.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#153

Post by BoumTAC »

caddemon wrote: post #128
BoumTAC wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fun, to me it's totally the opposite. I only learn if I learn by myself. In school I had a bad memory of the learning process. Now ten years after finish school I think I have learn a hundred time more by myself than from my scholarship. There is a quote from Taleb which looks something like this "What I learned on my own I still remember."

I don't think it needs to be an XOR. Being forced to cram a very rigid curriculum was not conducive to learning for me. But with no external pressure at all I also find it hard to deeply learn about a topic (I bounce around a lot). For me the perfect classes were the ones that had flexible assignments, where the largest portion of the grade would be a final project that could be related to anything from throughout th…

That's the issue, we are all so different in the way we learn we will never have a perfect learning experience for everybody.

Maybe that's why the current school system sucks. It's good for some people but not for some other

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#154

Post by gwbrooks »

humanrebar wrote: post #133
Turing_Machine wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

I've never been in an American church that required any particular form of support, for what it's worth. Most churches did give sermons on the subject, but there was never a direct consequence for ignoring that teaching.

It's the parish policy at many Eastern Orthodox churches in the U.S. that a member (which is to say: Someone who can vote at the annual meeting) have a pledge form on file.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#155

Post by WalterBright »

jacobolus wrote: post #148
WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades. The Wikipedia page about you says: “[Walter Bright] taught himself computer programming from the type-in programs in BASIC Computer Games” citing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28574770 as a source. Was there a series of formal tests and grades involved there? Or do you disagree with your own claim that you learned computer programming fro…

I didn't learn programming from a classroom.

I have audited some programming classes, and learned very little, because I never did the exercises nor took the exams.

I know that there are some unicorns who learned math on their own. But I haven't encountered one in the real world.

(Ok, so I know one - Hal Finney. But that man was simply so smart, he learned it by flipping through the book, i.e. it was effortless for him.)

> it is neither the most efficient nor the most effective way

I simply don't buy that. After all, how do you determine if those students learned the material without tests? I've often thought I understood something, but when faced with solving a problem, realized I understood nothing.

I attended Caltech, where they selected for passion. I was passionate, too. With just auditing the classes, I figure I'd have learned maybe only 10% of what I did. That's neither efficient nor effective. Ditto for the bulk of the students. Even though I picked courses that I wanted to master.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#156

Post by WalterBright »

CrazyStat wrote: post #127
lkschubert8 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one mentioned in the top comment, St. John's.

Reed College is another famous example, and Brown University allowed students to take all classes as pass/fail.

> Brown University allowed students to take all classes as pass/fail

Meaning they're still taking exams.

"The goal of the Reed education is that students learn and demonstrate rigor"

https://www.reed.edu/about-reed/history.html

Demonstrate rigor sounds like tests.

"Among the requirements for the major are successful performance on a junior qualifying examination, completion of a yearlong senior thesis based on original research or artistic expression, and a successful oral defense of the thesis before an interdisciplinary faculty board."

Testing is definitely done.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#157

Post by WalterBright »

lkschubert8 wrote: post #107
WalterBright wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe you aren't everyone. I didn't say "all students". > a number of colleges and universities that don't use grades An example of a prestigious university that doesn't use grades would help your case.

There is one mentioned in the top comment, St. John's.

There are many St John colleges. Please be more specific.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#158

Post by WalterBright »

selimthegrim wrote: post #134
WalterBright wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> several including myself Nice to meet the unicorn! Meanwhile, how many textbooks are on the shelves at Barnes&Nobel? Not exactly bestsellers, right? Even the University of Washington bookstore puts the textbooks in a separate room in the basement. > Textbook-level treatment of a subject is usually very shallow Maybe the ones you read are. The ones Caltech uses aren't, like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Gravitati…

Caltech has decided not to stock textbooks in its bookstore anymore, sadly (when I was there they still did)

Wow. I wonder what the rationale was.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#159

Post by watwut »

mahogany wrote: post #105
pdmccormick wrote: post #32

Has anyone ever stopped to consider the ethical question of applying the latest unproven fads of educational theory to unwitting students? Ideally before large scale rollouts? As someone who grew up during a tumultuous time for the public education system in Ontario, Canada, it felt like ever year or two whole curriculums were thrown out and the latest and greatest "cutting edge" approaches and fads were foisted upon…

In what ways are the (current) traditional models in public education "proven"? Genuine question. Speaking of ethics, it doesn't seem entirely ethical to force students to memorize a bunch of facts (chosen by whom?) and regurgitate them for arbitrary grades for over a decade, as if that has something to do with education. Certainly there is some lasting psychological damage inflicted by that methodology.

You are building strawman there. No one said anything about testing something you memorized years ago.

And also, quickly changing methodologies sux, because they change faster then teachers can really learn and become experienced in teaching that way. And same applies to students, because different methodologies have different expectations on how they should behave. So, you have constantly teachers doing something they are not fully sure how to do yet, parents who are confused about why this or that is different then last year and frustrated students who perceive the system being inconsistent and hypocritical.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#160

Post by watwut »

WalterBright wrote: post #56
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the things you learned under pressure of exams and grades, how many of them do you actually remember? That is, did you learn for long enough to pass the test, or did you learn ?

I'm well aware of the modern movement to discredit tests, arguing that doing well on tests have nothing to do with knowing the material. I'm not a subscriber to that. If you are, I expect you'll be disappointed with the results. It's also why there are athletic competitions. It brings out the best in athletes as they strive to win. Are their achievements fake?

> It's also why there are athletic competitions. It brings out the best in athletes as they strive to win.

Majority of people don't participate in athletic competitions. They checks out. These are for elite majority interested in finding out who is best of the best while everybody else sits on sofa and watches them on youtube.

Ideally, education should not have majority of students ignoring whole thing exists or merely watching others compete without every learning themselves.

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