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Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

digitalrightswatch.org.au

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Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#151

Post by numair »

I’ve spent a bit of time in Australia. When I compared the caliber of people who worked in tech and venture to those in mining and law enforcement, it was night and day. There’s a TON of smart people at companies like Woodside, and lots of smart people at the Australian Federal Police (to the extent where the US and other countries rely on them for help in tricky technical situations). The tech and VC crowd seemed to get off on the size of a funding round, or how tight they were with the founders of Atlassian, or if they knew some guy from America with a “successful exit,” or other complete nonsense.

With a dynamic like that, the law enforcement people are always going to point to the tech and venture people and say to politicians, “are you going to take orders from these clowns, or are you going to listen to us?” And now that you’ve got the climate activists antagonizing the mining companies, who are responsible for a very significant percentage of the economy, you’ve got two extremely savvy and powerful groups working together.

If Australian tech people want their government to take them seriously, they’re going to have to act in a manner that is as professional as those at the AFP, and they’re going to have to hit people with an economic hammer that can match the force of mining. Yes, it’s not fair that things are this difficult, but that’s life.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#152

Post by nl »

lettergram wrote: post #39
thisiswater wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also sets up conditions by which people have no choice but to make a choice which is in their own interest, rather than having a political process built on vote suppression, non-participation and the kind of clientelism which arises when politicians are more concerned with energizing their own base than expanding their appeal. Quoting political scientist Waleed Aly: "In a compulsory election, it does not pay to en…

I enjoy the quote from a political scientist, while ignoring the reality. In Australia we have an example of what happens when you force everyone to vote. It’s not going well, they literally have concentration camps, ask for papers, don’t let you leave your homes, etc. > I think your point about compulsory voting creating ripe conditions for more propaganda is not borne out by reality - the USA is just as flooded wit…

> It’s not going well, they literally have concentration camps, ask for papers, don’t let you leave your homes, etc.

Anyone who thinks this is actually what is happening in Australia is falling for propaganda.

> they literally have concentration camps

Offshore detention centres for refugees seeking asylum is a stain on Australia that cannot be excused or erased.

If you mean the quarantine centres they are finally building then.. they are nothing like concentration camps. They are a better alternative than the hotel quarantine system they have been trying and failing to make work until now.

And within 12 months we'll hopefully have vaccine rates hight enough travel for vaccinated people can get back to normal and they'll only be needed for people who choose not to be vaccinated and choose to come to Australia.

> ask for papers

I assume this is asking for vaccine certification? Seems reasonable, given our failure to get enough people vaccinated quickly enough.

> don’t let you leave your homes

I think this refers to home quarantine? That people in quarantine aren't allowed to leave their homes seems kind of the point?

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#153

Post by cgrealy »

lumost wrote: post #136
siquick wrote: post #37

I've lived in Australia for 10 years and really considering my familys future in this country. We are sleep-walking towards a very average future. An undiversified export economy, out of control house prices, a job-market primarily focused on two cities, a government intent on selling all public assets, very limited political interest in positive climate policies. The latter is simply addressed with "technology will…

`It really feels sometimes that the only thing the average Australian cares about is the price of their property portfolio.` If this is the only accessible form of financial gain - why wouldn't they? I strongly suspect that in order to have a dynamic economy a weak housing market is a pre-requisite. Given the choice it's much easier to plunk money down in a house and watch cash magically appear than it is to start a…

>If this is the only accessible form of financial gain - why wouldn't they?

It's not that they shouldn't care about their property portfolio, but it shouldn't be the only thing they care about.

For example, the AU government has given away millions to polluters with no appreciable return (https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12...).

It also has a terrible track record on human rights.

And that's just the last things I read... there's plenty more (this mandate for instance).

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#154

Post by 8note »

kylebyproxy wrote: post #112
user123456780 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though people may not be engaged in politics mandatory voting is important. It reduces extremist politics and the constant need to be increasingly divisive. It forces regression to the mean. In non mandatory voting systems the politicians need to motivate people to the polls. The default of the population is apathy so to generate action you appeal to the extremes who are the most likely to act. The more people y…

Compulsory voting in an unengaged populace can only serve to lower signal-to-noise ratio. How many times do we need to relearn "garbage in, garbage out"? The responsible ballot choice when uninformed is "abstain". AFAIA, Australia doesn't provide that option. Also, the intransigent moderates you mentioned create inertia biased toward status quo and inhibits appropriate policy action and change (see e.g. the slow-movi…

Voting at all in an unegaged populace is bad. Might as well just have a dictator

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#155

Post by bobbytit »

danrocks wrote: post #131
bobbytit wrote: post #55

Democracy is an illusion in Australia, just like the rest of the globalised West. Politicians are chosen to stand for election by a small number of corrupt branch stackers, not by the people. The people are given a choice between party a or b, which are two cheeks of the same arse.

I am curious to know where democracy is not an illusion (if it is in all the "globalised West").

So am I

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#156

Post by longwick »

vncecartersknee wrote: post #123
King-Aaron wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, stop repeatedly voting for blatantly corrupt parties, for one. The current LNP are so actively corrupt with their corporate interests, religious interests, repeated exposed in-house scandals, etc, yet the majority of the population continue to vote for them because they ignore it all and just keep supporting 'their team'. The Labor government tries to suggest that they're different, and end up with their own…

Why do you think that people keep voting for the blatantly corrupt LNP? and why are the other parties above becoming corrupt? Is it possible that the LNP are constantly in power because they are corrupt?

I suspect until just recently it was because of the negative gearing policies, but now that Labor has officially scrapped any changes I feel like the differences between the parties gets thinner and thinner.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#157

Post by systemvoltage »

Tronno wrote: post #132
gorwell wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.

> Strong men create good times. Or sometimes they just kill each other in cycles of violence spanning generations. > Good times create weak men. Or they enable amazing things like the internet, modern medicine, and empires that last 1000 years. Sorry, but I've seen this pithy quote before and I wish it would go away - it's simply not true.

I think you’re misunderstanding the quote. You’re right but so is the quote.

Strong men fought for our rights, fought for the allies and which led to long lasting peace and security.

These are the times that breed weak generations who have no moral compass and have been squandering basic rights and civil liberties.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#159

Post by layoric »

siquick wrote: post #37

I've lived in Australia for 10 years and really considering my familys future in this country. We are sleep-walking towards a very average future. An undiversified export economy, out of control house prices, a job-market primarily focused on two cities, a government intent on selling all public assets, very limited political interest in positive climate policies. The latter is simply addressed with "technology will…

Born in AU so bias is to stay, which leads me to push more for political change required to try to address these problems. Most of your 10 years has been under a particularly bad (and honestly corrupt) federal gov.

Country has a large state capture problem from largely mining companies but also other special interests that have lobbied and . Anything that might threaten those interests is being pretty heavily targeted, including action on climate[0] (See "Gas led recovery", and the use of funds intended to renewables used for things like CCS/CCUS and "blue" hydrogen.). And this is bleeding into laws and enforcement.

Then there is the constant resistance to a federal anti-corruption agency as well as reducing the influence of money on federal politicians (see backbencher/ministers resolving door with lobbying firms).

The conclusion I've (sadly) come to, is that (in the short term at least) more money needs to be thrown at smaller parties and independents to try to combat this. Unlike the USA, Australia has precedent of minority governments and compulsory voting combined with a preference system means that gaining even a small number of lower house/senate seats can make a disproportional impact to the policies being set around Australia. Both major parties are so similar but just switching from Blue to Red is unlikely to result significant change in policies for some of the issues you've raised.

[0] https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/wa-cou...

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#160

Post by adventured »

perl4ever wrote: post #87
mdoms wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Australia for 5 years and my sense is that, as harsh as it sounds, Australia needs to go through an extreme hardship to wake up as a nation. Australia has lived true to its moniker as the Lucky Country - at least two full generations of Australians have never witnessed economic hardship or downturn of any kind. Natural disasters pass the nation by (other than wildfires). Even Covid looked like it was going…

I wonder how much Australia is influenced by people who loathe the US and move from it to Australia because it's far away and yet Anglophone and "western".

> I wonder how much Australia is influenced by people who loathe the US and move from it to Australia because it's far away and yet Anglophone and "western".

No, you don't get to blame Australia's insanity on the US. They're fully in control of their own destiny and are one of the richest, most privileged nations in world history. Australia will have nobody else to blame if they plunge further into fascism from here.

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