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The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

151–160 of 202 posts

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#151
post #5

I got down leveled when I moved to big tech. Spent two years completely remaking the product I was tasked to work on, while the two other engineers on my team, both a level above me, cheered me on and didn’t do much. I turned our product from a total waste about to be cancelled into a promising tech with some momentum, but I spent all my time coding instead of writing about coding, and I likely won’t get promoted aga…

Have you looked around at other places while still working on this project? It sounds like they don't value you enough. That said, take care of yourself, burn out can be serious.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#152
post #76
post #5

I got down leveled when I moved to big tech. Spent two years completely remaking the product I was tasked to work on, while the two other engineers on my team, both a level above me, cheered me on and didn’t do much. I turned our product from a total waste about to be cancelled into a promising tech with some momentum, but I spent all my time coding instead of writing about coding, and I likely won’t get promoted aga…

Working in big tech has been incredibly disappointing. I'm a mix of a Software Engineer and a Systems Engineer, so finding jobs (and not getting downleveled) is fairly easy. That said, after nearly a decade in tech, and staying at one firm for over three years I have never been promoted without leaving a company. It's not like I don't have major accomplishments either; but politics is a blood sport and either you or…

> My two cents, it's not worth trying to get promoted. Enjoy what you do and once your RSUs have matured, start your exit by interviewing elsewhere.

This is the best advice I've seen so far.

I have refrained from playing the political game, have mostly stuck to helping people whenever they needed technical help (as it turns out, technical skills are critical when fixing things : p ) and that has lead to me being naturally included in interesting projects. If I start feeling like I'm not being asked to work on interesting things anymore, its a good sign to start looking elsewhere.

I guess I am somewhat fortunate/privileged that there are so many opportunities in tech that I don't have to play politics. Its pretty great though; its not like I can't recognize when others are playing political games, but I chose not to get involved in that world.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#153
post #95
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true from anecdotal experience. However, what confuses things is that the "employer" simply doesn't know what it wants. The "employer" in this case is your immediate manager and, perhaps, a promotion committee that may include your peers. This set can have quite a bit of turnover in a company without good direction. The only constants that get recognized no matter the people (who may not have the ability or i…

One of the relentlessly positive leads, the one who keeps calling me out for being pessimistic, has been swinging from his own petard for the ~year for rushing out changes we can’t really reason about a priori and getting smacked with obscure-to-us corner cases and regressions that are customer visible. I don’t think he’s absorbed yet how much political capital he’s burned through. Both his own and the team’s. People…

sounds like management material to me

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time) Reflective of the industry, really. It’s still that way in banking.

Vice President has legal meaning as a title. Only a vice president or above can make some loans. Since banks make those loans all the time they need a lot of vice presidents to do it. In a small town bank with at most 10 people it makes sense, but for a large banks with branches all over the country you end up with a ton of vice presidents just for that need, but they don't really get any other authority.

Interesting. I always wondered why Senior level engineers at banks got the VP title. It seemed odd for someone formerly an IC to suddenly step into a VP level role, but this makes sense now.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#155
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean at the end of the day the title is only to feed your own ego. At family gathering nobody's gonna ask you why you were Principal and now you're Staff. I find no difference between being called a "Director" or a "Manager", because the title alone tells me absolutely nothing Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time)

> Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time) My understanding was that this still happens as a way to get around corporate card policies (either from the company or the credit company) that prevent anyone with a lower-than-leadership title from having signature power for purchasing. Want to give someone a corporate card so they can buy their own necessities? Give…

> get around corporate card policies

This isn't true for tech companies (except maybe the antiquated ones). At my current firm, everyone got a corp card on request.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#156
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complex than that, though. If you're meeting with people outside your company, your title can influence how they see you. If you're meeting with a bunch of "Director" level people and you're a "Senior", they may treat you as a lesser member of the group. This can be impactful to your ability to accomplish your goals within that group at times.

That may be true, but definitely not in my experience. I have included my job historically on emails eg: Software Engineer but never my level. I don't even put that on internal emails because I see it as my business and no one else's. This includes when I worked side by side with sales folks from time to time at a start up. If you didn't feel like working with me if I was a SWE I but you feel like it with a Principal…

I think your experience is fairly characteristic of software developers. However, there's a lot of other segments out there where title comes into play a lot heavier; where it caries weight in the same way experience does.

It's probably also worth noting that title can impact pay when it comes to a job; a lot of companies have pay caps based on title.

Really, my point was that title is more than just self-gratification.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#157
post #2

I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty great. What that permitted me to learn about myself is that - at the end of the day - I just like solving interesting and challenging problems, working with colleagues as equals, and creating products and solutions that I'm proud of. I have utterly no interest an…

idk to me salary determines the level. you can't really "down level" when you get paid more. titles doesn't matter. I know for a fact a lot of people with "manager" are paid significantly less than me with my bland title, but it lets everyone sleep at night so all is well.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#158
post #126
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There do exist those rare creatures who manage to get promoted to, and beyond, L6 as ICs. I've been trying figure out how they do it, but can't say I've been making much progress. (I'm Staff myself, but would not have got here without management responsibilities.)

It's rare, but possible. Known of v high level example that is just incredibly disciplined about how they spend their time (e.g. "I did this, but was slowed significantly by poor code over that. Estimate about 30% time loss. I'm going to spend N weeks more in this area, so it's worth me spending 3.5 days fixing that code, but no more. I think I can fix it in about 2 days, so I will fix it. If I can't see the end of t…

It's not rare at all in my experience. You just have to have a combination of skills that pays more than average on the open market (big data runtimes or distributed systems, say, or AI, in addition to other domain expertise perhaps), and you'll be L6 or L7 IC, no problem. No managerial duties whatsoever. L7 is more nebulous, but L6 is absolutely doable for anyone with a modicum of marketable skill.

You see, in spite of their internal promo treadmill and brainwashing, companies have to compete on comp regardless. Comp ranges, in turn, are tied to levels. If, say, someone who knows a distributed query plan from a hole in the ground costs $1M/yr, they'll get that and the "level" will be adjusted accordingly, as much as necessary, ignoring the elaborate formal descriptions of job responsibilities.

It's the proles in the trenches that take the levels seriously. People who actually run things understand that levels are merely a hamster wheel, put in place to give you something to look forward to, and to keep your comp expectations in check. Lack of "broad organizational impact" is _the_ most often used cudgel to deny promotions to the more senior level, unless your skill stack allows you to bypass this bullshit entirely.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Anytime management asks you to do some work, ask them - "How will this play into my promotion?" If they can't come up with tangible points, don't do the work. You are not risking anything because at this point, the manager has already decided they want to string you along.

This probably isn't a good idea because you are going to annoy your manager. Annoying your manager is not a good strategy to getting promoted. Manager: I got this PagerDuty alert about the RefactoredRubeGoldberg System, can you look into it? Report: Sure, how will this help me get promoted? Manager: If you don't do this, then you won't get promoted. You should periodically bring this up to your manager in the 1:1 mee…

> This probably isn't a good idea because you are going to annoy your manager. Annoying your manager is not a good strategy to getting promoted.

In a different world, I would agree with you 100%. But our industry is filled with managers who only look out for themselves.

For a manager who says "If you don't do this, then you won't get promoted", this is a bad faith power move. I have learned that when a manager says this and the IC acquiesces, the manager ends up with a proverbial upper hand. Often, this asymmetry is abused.

At that point, I highly recommend the IC to cut their losses and switch. Let the manager spend another 6-12 months staffing and ramping up someone else to do the work.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#160
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some big companies are starting to figure out they need a plan to get people promoted before they leave. If so read that closely: it is your roadmap. Often what the map says isn't be a great coder, so put your time into the things on the map.

People have long said being a great programmer isn't important in business, but it really is. I don't want to work somewhere where being a great programmer is less important than being a politician. Being a politician in my view is a lot different than having soft skills. Unfortunately, most companies advertise they want great programmers and reward them, but that's mostly a lie.

Being great at programming is important only if/when they realize it is important. Politics is always important, but if you are not great at something else you may be found out.
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