U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#151

Post by enriquto » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #137

dmos62 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checkout Ben Anderson's 2 part ~30 minute report from Afghanistan for Vice from around 10 years ago [0][1]. He was embedded with British troops and ANA during a patrol with a lot of gun fights. The British strafed an empty field, almost bombed themselves twice and once an Apache launched a Hellfire missile into a compound with British and ANA troops in it and hit a building where a family with small children were hid…

It's never malice. Nobody goes, "hey, this compound is 100% only women and children, let's bomb it." Reality: "A patrol nearby said they took fire from the compound at such and such grid coordinates" It gets bombed. Turns out the unit on the ground was mistaken. War is hell. War criminals should be punished. But it's not a war crime to make a mistake. I love seeing these posts because it's clear that almost nobody he…

> But it's not a war crime to make a mistake.

I suppose that you are from the USA and your family is living there. Imagine that some afghan-controlled drone intended to kill some U.S. soldiers (a legitimate target because they are enemy combatants). But instead they kill your family. If it was a mistake, by the own account of the drone operator, would you still maintain that the killing of your whole family was not a war crime? Would you defend the drone operator in that case? Please notice that at the moment when they were killed, they were just enjoying a picnic in a field, minding their own business, unbeknownst that in another valley a few miles away there was a secret military training camp. I need to hear from you if you honestly think that the murderer of your family would be innocent in that case.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#152

Post by h2odragon » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #30

The journalist seems reckless for publishing a photo of the journal. Transcribe that to protect your source.

"protect your source?" We don't do that no more. Leakers are either heroes whose integrity must be honored and anonymity protected, or traitors who should be hounded beyond legal authority. Depending on who likes what they said.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#153

Post by pvaldes » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #36

ceilingcorner wrote: post #12

I wonder if Facebook Twitter etc. banning violent and bloody content has prevented the public from protesting these things more widely. It is well known that TV broadcasts of Vietnam led to outrage growing against that war.

Did they broadcast violent and bloody content from there? Genuine question. The downside to fb/Twitter etc allowing bloody/violent content would be that you’d get gore trolls and it would turn into /b

They could just close the comments for violent content that should be seen and let the still valuable testimony sink in a respectful silence.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#154

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #137

dmos62 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checkout Ben Anderson's 2 part ~30 minute report from Afghanistan for Vice from around 10 years ago [0][1]. He was embedded with British troops and ANA during a patrol with a lot of gun fights. The British strafed an empty field, almost bombed themselves twice and once an Apache launched a Hellfire missile into a compound with British and ANA troops in it and hit a building where a family with small children were hid…

It's never malice. Nobody goes, "hey, this compound is 100% only women and children, let's bomb it." Reality: "A patrol nearby said they took fire from the compound at such and such grid coordinates" It gets bombed. Turns out the unit on the ground was mistaken. War is hell. War criminals should be punished. But it's not a war crime to make a mistake. I love seeing these posts because it's clear that almost nobody he…

No one else would be given such a charitable viewpoint. Especially since it was a freaking radio that set off the kill process.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#155

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #99

jiggawatts wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, in more than a few asymmetric conflicts around the world, the weaker side would often parade around footage of dead children. Often carried in the arms of a weeping parent, with their tears making very visible streaks down the concrete dust on their face. Later, we'd find out that the "parent" was a soldier that found a dead kid in the nearby morgue or hospital for the photo-op. Or that the video clip was…

> not saying that powerful countries aren't responsible No, but you're making their apology, nonetheless.

Where is he apologizing for anything? He's pointing out that "look at atrocity X" where X is fabricated or at least not what it's purported to be is a propaganda technique as old as time.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#156

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #55

When we often look at drones and the advent of AI and the fear of automated killing drones but lets take another perspective. AI that assists in preventing innocents being killed. Still manually controlled but an AI to override hostile action when it deems it wrong. We all focus upon AI to identify and select targets, but an AI to help identify and prevent innocents being impacted - surely that approach would be a wo…

It's not a worthy goal, because that's not how it's ever going to be fielded. The West has always used its tech to attack entities with far less resources and far less ability to strike back. So the end result is that we use tech to kill more people "because the computer said so". The kids in this article were killed over a radio, not something that is uncommon in Afghanistan and would probably culminate in whole villages being wiped out.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#157

Post by queuesorcs » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

As much as I love to check hackernews, I’m not normally able to chime in with relevant information on most topics. I feel like this may be one where I can actually do that though as I’m former military and my job directly related to drones on a daily basis. Depending on what’s asked, I may not be able to answer but I’d love to help by sharing any knowledge or information on the subject that I can as I’ve gained so much from others sharing on different topics on here. Ask away and I’ll check back in 15-20 minutes.

Editing to add on that I’ll continue to check back on this for at least the rest of the day in case there’s anything else I can potentially shed more of a light on.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#158

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #115

hhsbz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't based on what, UN polls?

Seven rounds of internationally monitored and accredited national and regional elections over the past two decades.

During those two decades the country was operating under a western puppet government. The fact that the Taliban swept in so quickly with no resistance means that they were always there to begin with.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#159

Post by rscoots » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #151

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never malice. Nobody goes, "hey, this compound is 100% only women and children, let's bomb it." Reality: "A patrol nearby said they took fire from the compound at such and such grid coordinates" It gets bombed. Turns out the unit on the ground was mistaken. War is hell. War criminals should be punished. But it's not a war crime to make a mistake. I love seeing these posts because it's clear that almost nobody he…

> But it's not a war crime to make a mistake. I suppose that you are from the USA and your family is living there. Imagine that some afghan-controlled drone intended to kill some U.S. soldiers (a legitimate target because they are enemy combatants). But instead they kill your family. If it was a mistake, by the own account of the drone operator, would you still maintain that the killing of your whole family was not a…

There is such a thing as criminal negligence in choosing and attacking enemy targets.

But no, adding a whole bunch of emotional baggage to the act does not suddenly make any collateral death a war crime as you imply here.

Bombing runs are woefully innarcurate though, so the good thing is when we have better weapons we'll start using those instead. Unlike insurgency groups who will often kill civilians as a means. Think that was partly the above poster's point.

Re: U.S. drone pilot leaks footage reveals accidental killing of children and adults

#160

Post by owlbite » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

ghostwriter wrote: post #142

ricardobeat wrote: post #71

Having watched a few documentaries on the war, from multiple periods, my first thought was “who did they target with these drone strikes?” seeing as they usually had no idea who or where the enemy was. The answer is much worse than I could imagine: “a guy with a radio … which is reasonable grounds for suspicion”. Nothing accidental about it. These should be considered war crimes.

> The answer is much worse than I could imagine: “a guy with a radio … which is reasonable grounds for suspicion”. Nothing accidental about it. These should be considered war crimes. nothing new, there's a well known quote from a former NSA/CIA director: "We kill people based on metadata" [1] [1] https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/05/10/we-kill-people-base...

Before they were killing people with two-way radios they were killing sim cards the algorithm said should die :( (or so I hear).