Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#151

Post by pemulis » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:14 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #134

mkn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". While your formulation is deliberately obtuse, the underlying sentiment can be quite damning for a certain kind of free market fan-boy, the kind who insists that buyers in a market are rational in some individual or even collective sense, that they somehow optimize their own happiness or utility function. That notion…

"the kind who insists that buyers in a market are rational in some individual or even collective sense, that they somehow optimize their own happiness or utility function." This is my core point as well, thanks for taking the time to lay out a better case than I did. It's rather shocking once you realize that the human brain is not rational in the way we often think it is. I find this fact to completely destroy most…

Actually, the granddaddy of libertarian economics, F.A. Hayek, spent his whole career arguing that people are irrational (which is to say, they do not all share the same preferences), and that attempts to shape the economy based on a presumption of the existence of rational utility are doomed. Most non-libertarian economic systems are based on the assumptions that,

1. There is such a thing as rational utility, and 2. Bureaucrats can figure out what it is.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#152

Post by chopsueyar » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:14 PM UTC

nkassis wrote: post #76

icegreentea wrote: post #15

Could also mean that some teachers don't want the headache of dealing with a class with even greater disparities in skill and knowledge. It's hard enough dealing with a couple students bored in class cause they already know it. It's even harder to deal with half the class bored cause they already know it. Or it could really mean anything. Removed from context and the teacher's deeper reasoning, these quotes are large…

Also I don't think we can assume that teachers are able to give tutoring in all the levels the children might get too using the khan videos. You might say "how hard could it be for a 5th grade teacher to tutor trig?" but they like anyone else (including khan) probably would have to review some concepts (most teachers don't remember heron's formula by heart). This means they have to prepare multiple tutoring subjects…

Why can't the more advanced children tutor the less advanced children?

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#153

Post by jshen » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #127

jshen wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government sets the curriculum and standards then why have private schools? They will just cost more because they need to make their 15% margin.

Because the standards are minimum standards, and the private schools will endeavour to teach it better . Let me explain how schools work where I come from. The final year of high school is spent largely doing a series of examinations standardized across the state, called the Higher School Certificate. (It's a bit more complicated than that, there's a school-based contribution to the exams which gets normalized with a…

I laid out my concern with this sort of system here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2817958

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#154

Post by chopsueyar » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:19 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #30

This isn't surprising. There was actually an experimental elementary school in my town that was eventually shut down because the students were too advanced in math, so once they got to middle school it started causing political issues. Rather than having the other three elementary schools adopt the same system, they literally demolished the school and replaced it with a parking lot. There is actually a pretty good bo…

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873892763/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#155

Post by gdfsnob » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:26 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #150

gdfsnob wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). CATO is overwhelmingly filled with PhDs in Economics, and with my economics background, I think it's safe to assume the above article is not controversial at all among economists across the aisle and none of them would term it "purely political propaganda". You state that CATO is "purely politic…

The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). Or when there's not consensus in the field. You state that CATO is "purely political propaganda" without substantiating that claim with any specifics whatsoever. Why do you keep saying that? The first sentence of my last post makes it clear that this isn't about Cato. I don't care who wrote it.…

Please cite specifically what you're referring to as "political propaganda". Is it the claim that students don't have much of a choice when it comes to public schools? If so, to call that "political propaganda" is absurd.

Regarding Seattle, you're citing one data point. The majority of American public schools don't operate with open enrollment. If you're in a public school, you're assigned to one school in a designated area, and can't choose a different school.

"Go to Watts and check out the selection and quality of food in supermarkets."

This is just completely false and dishonest. There are a handful of Walmarts and Targets around Watts and the majority of other low-income neighborhoods -- all within a 5-minute drive.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=watts,+california,+walmart&#38...

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#156

Post by dkokelley » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #105

dkokelley wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was home schooled, and I wish there was a Khan Academy when I was growing up. We did use something similar with DVDs and an electronic blackboard. All in all, it worked out well for me, and I would encourage you to stick with home schooling. If you can, find a private school that allows home study. That way, you can get group field trips and sports activities while staying in control of your child's educational gro…

We'd consider private if we could afford it, but it's fuggin expensive, and with two kids it's out of the question. Interestingly, as home schoolers we're allowed to purchase tickets to local educational events (plays etc.) at the same price as local schools. So if there's a special showing of a play at noon for school kids, we can buy the discounted tickets and go to it. For sports etc., I believe that technically o…

The two best things about being home schooled for me were

A: The ability to work my own schedule. If I wanted to double up on school one day, I could. Then the next day I could skip school and work on a hobby or project. This brings me to

B: The ability to focus my studies on things that interested me. For me, this included Battlebots (I made one) and aviation. Aviation was an early career choice that didn't quite manifest for me (blessing in disguise, I suppose). I was able to do things like take the day off of school to copilot with my uncle who worked as a corporate pilot.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#157

Post by 18pfsmt » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:33 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #115

grandalf wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but many US colleges and universities are private and are the best in the world. I think your worry about someone starting a school that is actually a sham are very much out of proportion. In today's public schools, many kids can't read or do basic math, so it's hard to imagine something worse. Also, the monopoly system is the only reason parents can't easily switch their kid to a different school. If th…

"If this were an option, parents would be much more critical." I seriously doubt it. Just look at all the sham private colleges that exist right now. Also, I think the problem with our kids isn't the school system, but a culture that doesn't value hard work and education.

Are you aware that the Ivy League[1] schools are all private? So are the most prestigious high schools (the latter was attended by Zuckerberg, for example):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Academy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Exeter_Academy

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_league

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#158

Post by niels_olson » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:34 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #122

niels_olson wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you my daughter did very well in most subjects in private school, but had a terrible time with math. We switched her to a public school this year.* She has done better overall, and her math has improved most of all. There are some other factors involved (I'm not in residency, we like where we live in general, we're not facing the possibility of being upside down in a house, etc), but I can't say enough tha…

regarding Kahn Academy: I don't know. My 5 year old is competitive so the game mechanics work well. She's been using pbskids.org for years playing educational games, so it comes very naturally at this point. Also, she likes to learn :p Mostly I think it's her competitive nature.

Who is she competing with?

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#159

Post by timsally » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:37 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #86

jshen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools will lead to a marketing driven education system that preys on peoples ignorance. Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public.

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". Take an ad for the Macbook Air. It shows a stylish person happily using the Air to do something fun. Now consider an ad for a private school that shows a child happily benefitting from something he/she learned at the school being advertised. Maybe the ad shows a graduate getting accepted into a prestigious college or…

> Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad".

That's an outrageous claim. Take marketing of pharmaceuticals directly to patients. Unconscionable in my opinion (and many other first world countries agree). There are many limited cases where marketing is quite harmful. Indeed, we have reason to believe education is one of those cases. You simply need to examine the current state of law schools in the United States to see where marketing gets you. People fresh out of undergrad taking out six figure loans and being told the median salary at their law school is also six figures. Which it is. But what they aren't being told about is the bimodal distribution of law salaries and only the top of the class has any chance of paying back their loans. And let's not even get into those ads you see on TV from third rate schools trying to convince you to go back to get your "MBA".

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#160

Post by Daniel_Newby » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:42 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #94

grandalf wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". Take an ad for the Macbook Air. It shows a stylish person happily using the Air to do something fun. Now consider an ad for a private school that shows a child happily benefitting from something he/she learned at the school being advertised. Maybe the ad shows a graduate getting accepted into a prestigious college or…

I don't think it's a binary choice. I think capitalism is great for most things, and bad at some things. Education happens to be one of those things. If I buy a $30 bottle of pills that are supposed to make me lose weight, well I lost $30 and I learned my lesson. If I send my kid to a fucked up school it might take years for me to realize it was fucked up, and the stakes are much higher. A bit of back story. I'm the…

Yet here I am, a successful software engineer, due in large part to a good public education.

But were you given a good education, or were you smart enough to educate yourself given a modicum of education and a structured environment?

The problem is that half of people are not smart enough. If you teach them to read using word recognition, they will not deduce phonics on their own, so their reading ability is permanently capped at a level suitable for a dull 8 year-old.

The problem with zero-competition government schools is that when they get captured by a fad (word recognition, new math, no student left behind, etc.), it happens everywhere. There is no escape. And then 20 years later you get a new generation of teachers that are the product of bad teaching. The result is a 50 year cycle of mini dark ages.

... I was raised by my grandmother who is not educated at all. She would have been completely unequipped to make a good decision about such things.

But would she want to make a good decision? Or to avoid a horrifically bad decision? The latter does not require education or sophistication, just the ability to ask about the relative rank of the nearby schools.