The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#151

Post by Zababa » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #130

riffraff wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU system is pretty weak, but it's the result of trade offs, like everything else. You could be more strict, as France and Italy do for wines for example: italian wine can come with either an IGT label ("made in the right place") or a DOC one ("made in the right place in the right way") or a DOCG one ("made in the right place, the right way, and we actually checked the specific production"). The alternative is to…

The PDO approach impairs competition by making it impossible to legally refer to food with a name that people understand. In the US we see similar complaints arise from time to time when various agencies declare that you may not name your product "oat milk" because milk is defined as cow milk that is fortified with vitamins A and D (skim milk that is not fortified, for instance, gets to be named "imitation skim milk"…

> The PDO approach impairs competition by making it impossible to legally refer to food with a name that people understand.

No, because the name of the food implies a tradition and a terroir, which copies wouldn't have. If you say you're selling "parmesan" while actually doing some chemical thing that tastes like it and has the same texture, people will imagine wheel of cheese, Italia, which in that case will be wrong.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#152

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #128

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself , but where the product comes from is…

Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where…

My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections.

I would have no problem with a definition of "feta" that focused on things like the ingredients, process or qualities of the resulting cheese. Those are the sorts of things that a law intended to protect consumers would focus on. Instead, the EU defines "feta" by region (with some ingredient and process requirements as well), which is simply an attempt to benefit producers. I just want a bit of honesty about what these sorts of laws are intended to achieve.

In my opinion, the "feta" geographical indication is a particularly absurd case, since "feta" is just the modern Greek name for a type of cheese that's been produced throughout the Balkans and in Turkey since time immemorial. Greek cheese-makers are lucky that their name for the cheese became international (as opposed, say, to the Serbo-Croat name for the cheese), and now they're cashing in on it.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#153

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

Let me sum up the article in one phrase: "Businessman are annoyed that names actually mean something and that quality/origin/procedure is non-negotiable sometimes and are behind-hurt about it".

Cue Coca-Cola's lawyers arguing "Vitamin Water" can't be expected to have vitamins. Cue McDonald's "dairy-thing slice that looks like cheddar" (that tastes nothing like cheddar but can have something like a single digit % of material actually coming from a cow - who knows)

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#154

Post by dariosalvi78 » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

djbebs wrote: post #86

Bayart wrote: post #76

>"The Old World supplied the immigrants. It seems to be very weird that you’re saying that people can’t take culture with them," You can take the culture, not the terroir , that's the point. Actual buffalo mozzarella from Campania, to take something that would be familiar to an English-speaking audience, just tastes different. Using the same process isn't enough . And that's assuming the culture survives untouched, w…

Theres no such thing as "terroir" the whole concept is bullshit intended to justify the unjustifiable.

then try the real buffalo mozzarella and any other copy you find elsewhere. I am from Naples and I have lived about half of my life in other countries, and in each country I have tried to find a decent local substitute of mozzarella: I couldn't. Maybe it's a secret technique, maybe it's the air, who knows, but the fact remains that the only real mozzarella comes from there.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#155

Post by 8note » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

TheJoeMan wrote: post #127

himinlomax wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you make Cola that tastes exactly like Coca Cola, with the same ingredients? Geographical origins serve the same purpose as registered trademark, the only significant difference is that they don't belong to a single corporation.

What if Atlanta, GA, USA decrees that “Cola” has to be made in Atlanta, and that cheap stuff at Walmart has to be “RC Cola-style”?

Their main purveyor of cola will probably disagree, since they want to make cola everywhere

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#156

Post by Zababa » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #18

Dah00n wrote: post #3

> To some, the very idea of signing away their heritage still rankles, however. "The Old World supplied the immigrants. It seems to be very weird that you’re saying that people can’t take culture with them," said one dairy negotiator This is no different than if Apple workers from China start selling iPhones in the US that is actually branded Apple iPhone, completely different from a "real" iPhone or exact copy, same…

As a customer, why should I care if I get an iPhone or an exact, functionally identical, copy?

I'm French, and these kind of things are very important to me. When I buy cheese for example, more than just eat cheese, I want to know that I'm helping some tradition continue, and giving money to specific regions where the product is traditionally made. That applies for French products, Italian products, American products, Japanese products, you name it.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#157

Post by ska » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #152

ska wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where…

My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. I would have no problem with a definition of "feta" that focused on things like the ingredients, process or qualities of the resulting cheese. Those are the sorts of things that a law intended to protect consumers would focus on. Instead, the EU defines "feta" by region (with some ingredient and process requirements as well),…

> My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections.

And my point is that this is not true; that they are both, and it's important. So I guess we are disagreeing after all :)

I think a non-region tied version of this would be great, but "anything goes" is probably worse than current state.

Of course any sensible discussion about the producer protection side has to look at duties and quotas too, which makes things more complicated.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#158

Post by mkr-hn » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #156

anoncake wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a customer, why should I care if I get an iPhone or an exact, functionally identical, copy?

I'm French, and these kind of things are very important to me. When I buy cheese for example, more than just eat cheese, I want to know that I'm helping some tradition continue, and giving money to specific regions where the product is traditionally made. That applies for French products, Italian products, American products, Japanese products, you name it.

What kinds of things do you buy from America? Out of curiosity.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#159

Post by Zababa » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

himinlomax wrote: post #78

The US argument against it, based on immigrants, is rather convoluted — and quite idiotic. How many poor Champagne producers do you think emigrated to the US? Not one, considering how it's always been a luxury product and it's not that ancient. Do they deserve protection? Well Coca Cola sure does, why not them?

Especially with wine: did the immigrants bring soil with them? They didn't. You can't produce Champagne in the USA, just like we can't produce Californian wine in France.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#160

Post by Zababa » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

throwaway210222 wrote: post #52

This is the logical end game of whinging about cultural appropriation: the big boys also get to play. Perhaps a licence to use the English language?

Other people using your language actually benefits you, that's not the case for other people using your trademark.