The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#111

Post by api » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #110

api wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe we can’t figure out why it tastes different.

We mostly know what makes it taste different. The problem is, most of it is expensive and time consuming. People would like to take cheaper approaches and market as the same thing. The terroir aspect is often overblown but does contribute. Far more often the issues is something like "milk is milk, right?" which just isn't true.

That seems like a clearer description of the problem. The issue isn’t so much where it comes from as how it’s made. Someone in the original place of origin could cut corners too.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#112

Post by ska » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #103

greatgib wrote: post #9

> The wording is strange, it looks like they say that it is wrong to say that it is inauthentic. But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive.

The notion of "authentic" food is a manufactured marketing gimmick. There is always variation present, even from household to household, but for marketing purposes we now like to pretend that some particular food is always prepared exactly in this one way, with no room for deviation at all. This is nonsense.

I think this comment is targeted at the wrong level of abstraction.

E.g. Obviously there is not one way to make cheese, but cheeses themselves are unique. Most of this argument is about how much variation is acceptable before it's really something different and should be labeled differently so consumers are well informed.

EU and USA seem to be at extremes on this, the former arguing that if I make cheese doing the same thing except for being 1 field west of a region, I shouldn't be able to label it X, while many American companies think they should be able to use different cows with different feed and different processes and quality control and still call it X.

I suspect there's a better middle ground, but not sure anyone will reach it.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#113

Post by lou1306 » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #60

tchalla wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moldova has 5 wines and 1 spirit protected under the GI status. https://www.tmdn.org/giview/gi/EUGI00209900380 https://www.tmdn.org/giview/gi/EUGI00209900381 https://www.tmdn.org/giview/gi/EUGI00209900382 https://www.tmdn.org/giview/gi/EUGI00209900383 https://www.tmdn.org/giview/gi/EUGI00209900383 https://www.tmdn.org/giview/gi/EUGI00209900385

1. So what? Some of those "protected wines" didn't even exist before the agreement and no one cares if they are protected, or not. This is basically a "in exchange of a few thousand names [1] that you can never use even if you produce an identical product, we will protect some names many of which not even you care about, or weren't even ever used before this agreement". 2. That "protected spirit"? That's the new inve…

> Imagine if no country could call whisky, well, whisky, and each country had to invent their own name for it.

Well that's actually what happens, more or less: we do have Scotch whisky, Irish whiskey, and bourbon, and you cannot make some whisky in, say, France, and sell it as "Scotch".

For what it's worth, EU laws also struck Italy, which cannot sell "Tocai" wine no more (now it's called Friulano) because the name sounded too similar to the Hungarian "Tokaji" wine. Note that the similarity was in name only, the two wines are totally different otherwise. You gain some, you lose some.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#114

Post by rhn_mk1 » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #106

dantheman wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all you have to do is look at where it where it was made on the label -- is that too difficult?

> So all you have to do is look at where it where it was made on the label -- is that too difficult? Apparently yes. Otherwise why would anyone insist on this? I’m also not at all against seeing the entire new world having to eat “Parmesan style cheese” just to reinforce my own feeling of old-world superiority (I’m half joking, but you get the point of why this may be a thing)

The reason some people insist on this is because they themselves value the provenance (place in this case) where the product was made, and they insist on discounting the opinion of those who care only about the end result.

When Parmesan is only made in Italy, those who care don't have to look at the label, but those who only care about the parmesan part have a hard time tracking under which label the non-Italian version is sold.

It's a question of whose effort is getting discounted.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#115

Post by rhn_mk1 » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #83

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would make that a tragedy? If the production of Parmesan in Italy is an important cultural phenomenon, then it can be preserved using other means, even non-economical ones.

It seems more genuine to have it remain a business/industry and not a museum. I quite like having genuine Parmesan from the right place. I’m happy to see any amount of ham fisted protectionism to keep it that way too. So to me it’s an easy win.

That's a false dichotomy. It's possible to inject money into local businesses without implementing trademarks. It's possible to create something in an artisanal way, or even as a hobby.

Not everything culturally important needs to turn into an industry, as the existence of local music bands proves. Those don't only play in museums.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#116

Post by ska » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

roelschroeven wrote: post #20

greatgib wrote: post #9

> The wording is strange, it looks like they say that it is wrong to say that it is inauthentic. But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive.

But the thing is, what if you produce feta with the exact same ingredients and recipe in Australia? The customer gets the exact same thing, only made somewhere else. I'm all for quality standards, so that customers can now exactly what they get. But be able to use a name based on the location where something is produced, that doesn't protect the customer at all. It only protects a selected set of producers.

> the exact same ingredients and recipe in Australia?

One problem is this might not be possible. Can Australia use raw milk? Do they have any of the right cows? Do they have the right feed for the cows? How far does "same ingredient" go?

I'd likely support such an approach, e.g. you could make "parmiagano reggiano" somewhere other than parma, so long as you used exactly the same inputs and processes and quality control measures, but depending what country you are in that might not even be legal. Even in that case you should probably have clear "product of X" labeling so people could decide.

Of course the flip side is as soon as you did that, GI's groups would probably try and tie process to their region specifically in some rediculous way.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#117

Post by l320093jj » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

greatgib wrote: post #9

> The wording is strange, it looks like they say that it is wrong to say that it is inauthentic. But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive.

Here's the thing: I'd argue in the US calling it "feta" is not deceptive, because most people I know have no expectation that feta cheese necessarily comes from some area of Greece.

I have no problem labeling a cheese "feta" if the location of production is clearly indicated. "Feta" is just "shorthand" for "feta-style". Everyone will just call it "feta" anyway. Maybe it doesn't matter if it says "feta-style" or "feta" but the whole thing seems sort of silly to me and a waste of money. It's fighting a losing battle.

It's not that I don't appreciate cheeses from their original locations; it's just that this labeling initiative seems disingenuous to me, in that it seems to be fighting normal processes of language evolution and change.

A better example maybe is cheddar. This is something so entrenched in American vernacular that the idea that we should insist on labeling it "cheddar-style" is clearly unnecessary. When someone says "cheddar" in the US about 99.9% of the time they are referring to a style of cheese, maybe from New York, maybe Vermont, maybe Wisconsin, maybe from England, maybe somewhere else. They're not referring to a location. "Cheddar" and "cheddar" in this context are polysemous homonyms/polysemes.

Arguments about replicating some original flavor of a place of origin are missing the real underlying problem, which is that labeling a product according to its commonly understood meaning, if the location of production is clearly given in the packaging, is not deceptive. Sure, we can tack on "-style" onto everything but it's not going to keep people from ignoring it in speech.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#118

Post by ska » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #62

pimterry wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the details matter. Slightly different breeds of animal, different weather conditions, or different bacterial ecosystems affect the resulting cheese. You can make something similar to these products elsewhere, but it won't be exactly the same. Some products are famous and specific enough that customers have a right to be able to know when it's the real deal (and there are many such customers - ot…

I always feel these arguments are a bit disingenuous. You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Exclusive ownership of famous culinary names like "Feta" and "Champagne" is valuable, an…

> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese

This is absolutely not true, at least in countries I've lived.

Do I believe that someone in the USA is capable of producing very good feta? Absolutely! And I've had some. However, the vast majority of what you will find in the typical grocery stores isn't very good, majority of it notably inferior not only to the imports, but random stuff I've bought in, say, Greece or Israel etc. [edit for clarity]

I'd be all for something a bit less restrictive, but anything goes approach just leads to a glut of low quality approximations riding on the cachet of the name until the name becomes meaningless. You can argue that this gives consumer choice (i.e. I'd rather pay $2 for feta then $5) but it doesn't give accurate information, which is also bad.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#119

Post by riffraff » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

api wrote: post #111

ska wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We mostly know what makes it taste different. The problem is, most of it is expensive and time consuming. People would like to take cheaper approaches and market as the same thing. The terroir aspect is often overblown but does contribute. Far more often the issues is something like "milk is milk, right?" which just isn't true.

That seems like a clearer description of the problem. The issue isn’t so much where it comes from as how it’s made. Someone in the original place of origin could cut corners too.

The EU system is pretty weak, but it's the result of trade offs, like everything else.

You could be more strict, as France and Italy do for wines for example: italian wine can come with either an IGT label ("made in the right place") or a DOC one ("made in the right place in the right way") or a DOCG one ("made in the right place, the right way, and we actually checked the specific production").

The alternative is to have a local consortium certify the producers/products: parmigiano reggiano can only be labeled such if the local Consorzio checked it (all wheels are checked).

The PDO system ensures that there is no abuse cross-border (no polish "parmesan"), while the Consorzio guarantees the quality (no corners cut).

Worth saying that you can have great products with no label and made wherever, but the system exists to avoid someone capitalizing on the work of others.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#120

Post by ska » Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #108

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always feel these arguments are a bit disingenuous. You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Exclusive ownership of famous culinary names like "Feta" and "Champagne" is valuable, an…

I’ve never tried American-made “feta”, but I have tried American-made “cheddar”, and it’s so far from the real stuff it’s closer to “vegan cheese”. If this is due to generally lower standards, or actually because of the differences in milk and/or bacterial cultures, I couldn’t possibly comment. But it is noticeable.

There is actually some very good American cheddar, although mostly it's a bit different than the "real" thing.

However, it's become a staple through massive production of something quite different.

I imagine a lot of it has to do with inputs, there has been a race to the bottom for milk prices which means both breeds and feed compromise on taste for volume, all milk is pasteurized, minimal aging is done in massive blocks, etc.