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Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

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Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#151

Post by sbacic »

chrisseaton wrote: post #8

Why are European companies so unambitious ? My whole civilian career I've had to work for North American companies because the European alternatives aren't even attempting to be competitive.

Because the rewards just aren't there. Amazon is a company started by some guy in a garage and less than 30 years later it is one of the richest companies in the world. Something like that just isn't going to happen in Europe - you'd be crushed by high taxes and regulation long before you reached that level.

Some Europeans will say that's actually a feature, not a bug. But look at what businesses are being started instead - neighborhood pubs and apartments for rent to tourists. Low-growth, low risk businesses with quick returns. What kind of jobs are these businesses going to create?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#152

Post by yarcob »

GiorgioG wrote: post #138
poopypoopington wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of national healthcare really puts a damper on free labor movement in the US. You want to start a company but also have health insurance for your family? That'll be $12,000 with a massive deductible... Gets in the way of a lot of would be entrepreneurs

As much as I'd like to agree (I am pro-national healthcare for the US) - if you don't have $20,000 (let's say that covers your annual premiums & deductible) - you sure as heck don't have the funds to quit your job and become a full-time entrepreneur.

You can start a software business in Austria with just a laptop and get health insurance for 32€/month (total social security payments if you don't make profits are about 150€/month). Fees for registering a company are waived/reduced for founders. I had nowhere near $20000 when I started.

Sure, if you want to open a capital intensive business like a restaurant, you'll need more money. But that's the same everywhere.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#153

Post by emptysongglass »

thijsc wrote: post #143
238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free. Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over…

Work for a tech company in Europe. GDPR compliance is costing us massive manpower hours and money spent on compliance consultants. Most of my salary gets obliterated before it reaches me and I make significantly less than tech workers in the US.

There's a lot to like about the security but I'm starting to wonder if I can ever really break out of working until I'm enfeebled here.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#154

Post by Tesl »

SOMA_BOFH wrote: post #149
ddalex wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand the people in EU are happier, have better social protection, better benefits, better health systems, better consumer protection, better application of rules and laws, they make for more productive employees. Do the shareholders get as rich as fast as in the hyperactive US economy? Not, but the society functions better. I very much prefer the EU.

have you tried to start a company there?

Did you completely fail to parse what he was saying there or something?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#155

Post by 238475235243 »

reader_mode wrote: post #150
thijsc wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free. Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over…

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of t…

This is entirely accurate from my experience. It's cargo cult "tech scene".

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#156

Post by systemvoltage »

brainless wrote: post #123
systemvoltage wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry you had such an experience. Startup life has pros and cons, and situationally varied. I've worked on several startup ventures of my own and nothing in the world is more satisfying than "skin in the game". It feels real and impactful. I didn't work more than 8-10 hours a day. People using your products and gratification of the fact that you/your-team built is so much more real to me. Friendships I've formed…

I think you do not understand. I have more "skin" in the game than you might think. I am a founder who understands business, finance, talks to users, takes support tickets, can talk to investors, and write in 3 different programming languages, setup the entire software pipeline myself. I am more hands-on than you might have seen around. Trust me on that. Your definition of "skin" does not need to be mine. I want to h…

There are plenty of startups that are bootstrapped and without investor pressure: https://www.indiehackers.com/

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#157

Post by JKCalhoun »

brainless wrote: post #123
systemvoltage wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry you had such an experience. Startup life has pros and cons, and situationally varied. I've worked on several startup ventures of my own and nothing in the world is more satisfying than "skin in the game". It feels real and impactful. I didn't work more than 8-10 hours a day. People using your products and gratification of the fact that you/your-team built is so much more real to me. Friendships I've formed…

I think you do not understand. I have more "skin" in the game than you might think. I am a founder who understands business, finance, talks to users, takes support tickets, can talk to investors, and write in 3 different programming languages, setup the entire software pipeline myself. I am more hands-on than you might have seen around. Trust me on that. Your definition of "skin" does not need to be mine. I want to h…

I like you.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#158

Post by cjblomqvist »

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

In Sweden you can more or less fire anyone as long as you're a small company, without any long notice. I don't recognize the other negative comments either. Taxes are high, but VAT doesn't matter at all unless you're a B2C company (and really it's the consumer paying for it, not you). Vacation is 5 weeks which I realize is a lot compared to the US (I've worked in US so know how it works). But if those extra 3 weeks are what kills your company?

Tax on salaries are quite high, but salaries are significantly lower (especially compared to the level of competence you get - but it varies).

On the other hand we have free health care (with a quality level similar to the top 20-50% level you get in the US is I'm not mistaken) and great support systems should you fail or something happens.

Admin is not obscene and you actually get a lot of help should you need it from the government agencies like the tax authorities.

Then Sweden has a similar level of entrepreneurship per capita as California or the SF region even I believe.

Access to capital do suck compared to the US (based on my limited perspective).

Fear of getting sued for silly shit is unheard of here compared to the US.

TLDR; It varies a lot between countries in the EU. It can be problematic to be overly generalistic in your description. It's for sure different, but I'm not sure everything just sucks compared to the US.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#159

Post by tasogare »

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> the low work ethic

Incredible to read this... the top-15 of most productive countries [1] are all European save for the US and Australia, which are populated with a huge population of European descent.

[1] https://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#160

Post by emptysongglass »

robocat wrote: post #83
passerby1 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an economist, but in my opinion a progressive taxation (for employees wages) can be a main limiting factor to this. Ambitions needs motivated employees. They need better wages to work harder. But it's really a steep curve after mid-wage, because taxes are _very_ progressive. So ambitions are just not worth trying.

I don't buy that argument. As I increase my earnings, more and more is disposable income (beyond the costs of living for my social status). Extra dollars go towards things you want, not the things you need, so there is quite an incentive to earn more even if it is highly taxed. As you raise your income,

Anecdata from myself here but I've recently hit top tax in Denmark. I'm ambitious but have started to feel like it's just not worth it scrabbling for an extra 2 or 3k a month when most of it disappears down the end of a hoover.

I don't even know how millionaires who can afford their incredible estates in the countryside do it. My first thought was tax havens but I don't know if that's true. It seems like the entire system is set up to disembowel such ambitions.

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