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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

151–160 of 266 posts

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#151
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

So if the company does something unsavory, just walk away? Not even trying to change it first?

If you don’t like a policy, go live somewhere else?

If you find mold in a fruit, go shopping in a different place?

I mean, it’s a valid strategy. But obviously not the only valid one.

It’s not wrong to like the other aspects of the job and try to change the quality that they disagree with.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#152
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

Why not try this first though? You complain, and if complaints aren't met you then quit. It's kind of childish, in a way, to not voice problems you have until you just up and quit one day. It's much more professional to at least try and communicate.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#153
post #86
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is par for the course at most companies with IP to protect. If you quit they just walk you out.

In the US, in countries with more worker protections it is not. (unless they pay you for that 2-week, month, 3-month period when you aren't working for them, but they can't remove you from worker list).

Yes this is correct. The primary difference in at will employment is that I also am not required to give my employer notice, whereas in the countries you mentioned I am.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

>"that modern parenting" Back in my days we would chop off heads and assisinate politicans! These kids can't do anything right!

> Back in my days we would chop off heads

Ironic that guillotine memes are so popular among the kids these days, no?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

This is such a bad-faith, shallow take. Ascribing the act of bringing awareness to “participation trophies” is nonsense. I also disagree with the parent. Bringing change is almost always easiest from within. “Don’t like it? Leave.” stances aim to do more to attack the person involved than it does to take a critical look at whatever problem it is that’s being discussed.

It is not "don't like it? leave.", it is "stop working for immoral organizations". Would you consider a guard of a concentration camp ethical if they "condemned" the actions of the government but continued to support them via their work? I wouldn't.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#157

It's sort of meta but... The article repeatedly mentions Gebru's race and sex and includes it for the only Google employee quoted. Why does that matter? Is she more reliable because of her skin colour? Is he less reliable because of his genitals? The cynic in me feels like I'm being subtly trolled. Or maybe I'm just oversensitive? :)

I think they're trying to make out it's racial and she was slienced on pointing out a racial issue.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#158
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but "The Middle Path" is a hard sell to the masses.

I think there's a weird seam of irrational rage around the mere suggestion that tech isn't some utopian meritocracy. I find it jarring.

Yep. People mistake means for the ends.

Anybody may be susceptible to such ideology and short-circuited bias. However, technical people are often so focused on their details, we are probably even more vulnerable to this than most.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#159
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the employee says "I'm giving you 1 month formal notice of resignation", and the company responds with "effective immediately you are terminated without pay or benefits", at that point it's not a resignation any more, it's a termination. In most countries (which are not "at will"), I believe if the employee had not breached their contract they could claim wrongful termination in this scenario and likely be awarded…

Employers just need to pay you whatever period is written in your contract (which may be longer or shorter than 1 month). Which may very well be what happened here - nobody claimed she's no longer paid a dime, just that she no longer has access to Google resources. You can't just say "i'm giving you 1 month of formal notice of resignation" and expect the company to be bound to that month... otherwise, to take it to e…

In the US, in most states, 'at will' employment often means zero notice is required from either side. A contract can specify otherwise, as can other things (such as a company HR procedure).

> You can't just say "i'm giving you 1 month of formal notice of resignation" and expect the company to be bound to that month... otherwise, to take it to extremes, what's stopping you from giving them a 20years formal notice of resignation?

You actually can say that if you want.

What stops 20 years notice from having any effect is that the company can terminate you anyway in the normal way before that. I.e. they can still make you redundant, fire you, assess your performance etc in all of the usual ways, or in 'at will' locations just let you go without a reason. They will still be subject to discrimination law etc if they fail to comply with all the usual constraints on terminating employments, but nothing about your 20 year notice prevents them from following the normal rules at any time.

ps. I really meant to say "giving 1 month formal notice in accordance with my contract of employment", but I realised in the US people don't always have any notice in their contract (due to 'at will') so I removed the part about being in accordance with it.

Ignore employment as a special case for a moment. In general, for any contract (implied or not), parties can give each other advance notice of something that is going to take effect in future, as if they told the other party on the future date of the effect; the effect will not occur until that date. The other party in the contract can't just decide the effect has taken place earlier. You can also give conditions. In a sense, notice of this kind is just a courtesy, an advance warning if you like.

I believe in US 'at will' terms, Timnit effectively gave notice that she was going to resign at a specified future date under certain conditions. Timing had not actually resigned at the point at which Google is said to have terminated the employment. That makes it a termination.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the subtle, yet important, difference is that she said she would quit by a certain date and they terminated her immediately. Given her role is likely just for PR it seems rather foolish not to at least give her two weeks notice or something.

If employee is found using company resources inappropriately (in this case, mailing list to rant) then you can't give that employee 2 weeks notice. Google will then have to consider possibility that she will abuse their mailing lists.

Google has internal mailing lists dedicated solely to rants (and related discussions) and others on which rants are certainly well accepted.

Google exercises a subjective standard to determine whether or not an employee is using mailing lists inappropriately (e.g. James Damore).

Source: ex-google

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