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German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

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Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#151

Post by bkor »

sdoering wrote: post #31
arrrg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role). At least three employees have to take…

It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things. but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different companies talk and some stories are outright scary.

> It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things.

In the company I work for some join the (Dutch) Works Council just to get ahead in their career. They often join until they're promoted. It's a huge international shipping company.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#152

Post by bkor »

the-dude wrote: post #41
dtech wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the compan…

There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract. In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. Disclaimer : I am Dutch.

> In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract.

In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone.

https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#153

Post by bkor »

the-dude wrote: post #77
dtech wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees. It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.

You are shifting goalposts. Firing != expiring. If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off .

> If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.

That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p).

Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#154

Post by smnrchrds »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #93
mathieubordere wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My goodness, this is detrimental for their image ...

Does this ever end well for the company? These moves should make it extremely clear to the employees how much they need a works council.

I don't know about Germany. But using every dirty tactic in the book seems to have worked well for Walmart in the US.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#155

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

Semaphor wrote: post #32

> N26 has filed another restraining order to prevent today's Electoral Board Selection for N26 GmbH, this time against the union ver.di. As such, IG Metall has stepped in to chair today's meeting. It will take place at the same venue, with the time delayed so people can make it. -- https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216 ver.di and IG Metall are Germanys two biggest unions.

IANAL, so perhaps someone could clarify a detail for me:

I've seen phrasing such as "N26 has filed another restraining order ...".

Is that just a shorthand way of saying that N26 filed a request for a court to issue a restraining order, and that request was granted?

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#156

Post by bkor »

scrollaway wrote: post #150
aviraldg wrote: post #114

Any recommendations for digital banks that aren't terrible to their employees? The biggest/best ones I know of are N26 and Revolut and both are kinda similar in this context.

Bunq (nl). Wonderful bank, support, ethics, API. Not free.

That bank is way more significantly expensive than any other bank. This while in various countries having a bank account is free. I really do not get why Bunq is popular. I also do not have any support problems with my bank, nor does anyone I know need support from their bank.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#157

Post by bkor »

readarticle wrote: post #5

The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries, including Brazil and the United States I find it hard to believe these councils don’t have the ability to account for international employees, is this a specifically “outside the EU” issue since the examples given are in the Americas, and not any of the neighboring countries…

It's bullshit (I'm on a Dutch Works Council). The Works Council decides over matters within that country. So anyone in that country is (more or less) represented. Could be a bit more difficult if there's multiple legal entities, especially if some of those are too small. A German Works Council can hold all of their meetings in German. A Dutch Works Council can hold it in Dutch, though German one can really force more things to be in Dutch. The Dutch Works Council has non-Dutch members, the meetings are in English, etc. If a change is also about something outside of NL we do not deal with it. Similarly, if there's some change in some other country we might not even hear about it (which is totally fine!).

If the weird statement is a fake fear about employees in another country: setup a similar Works Council in that country. An employer can easily give additional rights, meaning: setup a Works Council-like thing in a country where you aren't required to have one.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#158

Post by esperent »

I used to be a happy N26 customer. But now I'm going out of my way to tell everyone not to use them. Two years ago I ordered the "metal" account (I think that was the name) since I was traveling a lot. Last year, I forgot to cancel it until I got an email saying it renewed.

It's not a huge amount, €5 a month. But I don't use it anymore so that's wasted money and I decided to cancel it. Under EU law, I have two weeks to cancel a subscription if I decide I don't want it, including an auto-renewing subscription. I've cancelled subscriptions this way with companies before and never had any comments beyond "yes, we'll cancel that for you immediately".

Not so N26. I said I want to cancel (within 2 days), they said I'd have to pay the full year. I sent them the EU law saying that I have two weeks to cancel, and they immediately, and in very threatening terms, said if I don't pay it all they'll send my account to a debt collection agency (this is now the 4th message in the conversation, and my first ever conversation with support after three years as a happy customer).

I immediately withdrew all money from the account and emailed support instructing them to close the account, referencing that support conversation and the law saying that they can't charge me for the year's subscription.

Well, they did close my account, and they did send the rest of the subscription charge to a collection agency who have sent me a few messages (that I've ignored).

Oh, and the cherry on top. They emailed me back to say that my attempt to cancel the subscription was not valid because I didn't use the word "revoke". Apparently this would have all been fine if I said I want to "revoke the subscription" but my account goes to a collection agency because I said " cancel my subscription" instead which is completele BS.

Pretty terrible experience. In short, don't use N26.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#159

Post by DasIch »

smnrchrds wrote: post #154
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this ever end well for the company? These moves should make it extremely clear to the employees how much they need a works council.

I don't know about Germany. But using every dirty tactic in the book seems to have worked well for Walmart in the US.

It’s interesting you mention Walmart. Walmart has failed spectacularly in trying to enter the German market. Their treatment of employees probably was a factor but probably not the most important one though.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#160

Post by jashmatthews »

lumberjack wrote: post #56
klausa wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. https://www.statista.com/statistics/424159/pay-gap-between-c...

How is that relevant? I don't care about the relative gap in whatever other country. I don't live in the US (although I wish I did). In Germany, I see average compensation for a SWE 65k€ whereas management at the same company can have upwards of 300k€. Especially bad if you work a tech job at a non-tech company. There is definitely a culture of rewarding management with money and employees with "stability" which mean…

The average US developer salary is about $110k so you're probably better off making €65k so they're not really much better off. If you have a family it's almost certainly a worse deal in the USA.

There are also places in Germany offering 2-3x that €65k in total comp for comparable roles as you see for the high salaries in the USA. Amazon Berlin, Google Munich etc.

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