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In Britain, even jails have a class system

theatlantic.com

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Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a minimum security facility there are often no fences. I was at Morgantown and you could get anything you wanted for approximately 4x the retail value. It was so fucking hot there guys would have their families buy a "prison" issue fan on Amazon and send it to someone who's family lived in Morgantown. Then they'd run out and bring it back in the middle of the night. Cigarettes were $2 each or $20 for a pack. Dip i…

I've heard stories about people improvising "hooch" by letting apple or orange juice sit around and ferment and using that as a trade item for the other usual stuff. When I got stuck in a similar minimum security facility (no cells, just half-walls between groups of 4 beds so there was lots of socializing going on), people would trade their prescribed Seroquels and other such meds similarly. I also found out about "m…

Your post reminded me of the poem pruno which has always stuck with me: https://pen.org/recipe-for-prison-pruno/

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#152
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The general public gets very vindictive This is a serious problem. Lots of people openly support violence, torture, rape and murder as long as they happen to prisoners. It's all part of the punishment.

Can you think of a time or condition in the past when Americans were more amenable to rehabilitation?

Johnny Cash played a concert at Folsom Prison. Can't see the public going along with something like that anymore. This isn't proof of a higher appetite for rehabilitation but it does seem that attitudes were a bit softer at the time. Conjugal visits are another thing that have been mostly eliminated, with just a couple of states still allowing them.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#153
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest look at criminal justice is actually terrifying, even moreso because we don't even have a lead on alternatives.

Decriminalization of non violent drug use and a prison system focused on rehabilitation would be a start.

Near on all of the knife crime in the UK has it's roots to do with heroin and cocaine (in all forms like crack).

You get users who due to habit get dealers into their homes and they call it cuckooing, though sadly they hand that excuse out to all users, even ones that know exactly what they are doing and keep getting away with that same excuse.

It is this lack dealing and victimhood blanket upon all users that keeps the market buoyant and the gang turf wars in which you see runners (those who deliver the drugs) being the brunt of knife crime victims.

Sadly, this enables a situation in which they keep targeting the effect and not the source. Sure they put a few members of a gang away, those left soon rebuild and seen this happen so many times it is beyond painful to see this play out time and time again.

Then you have the rehab failings that equally do not help users get clean, this see's the NHS suffer and numerous services abused as they are just too soft. Sure there are legit victims and you could say all addict are victims, but when many addicts are the source of daily shop theft, burglary, fraud.... You see just see the flames fanned with petrol.

But some initiatives have worked better than others: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39179504

Whilst not a solution for addiction, has stymied the knock on effect of crime.

But the lack of proper rehab facilities and support just ends up with the NHS handing out methadone (more addictive) as a solution and even that get's abused and they all know somebody who can provide clean piss for any tests and with that, still use heroin, just augment usage with the methadone.

Then this all gets down to the addict - actually wanting to give up. Many don't and will often only go thru the motions to appease some judge and with that, they are great at gaming the system.

Now, if they would legalise the less dangerous drugs like canabis in the UK and tax that, then they could use that money to finance education, and more so proper rehab.

Equally, poor area's, they are and always will be the source of driving people towards drugs and that's because their reality is just depressing, this see's such area's often become drugs hotbeds.

But sadist part is the police depend upon information from the public, alas been so many instances in which that is misused and ignored to the extent that anybody informing is soon known by those gangs and users and they resort to making false reports to the police and I've seen many good honest people in my area driven away and suffer. That is a bigger issue than the media care to acknowledge.

But let's step back and think - if drugs are a big issue in prisons, what hope has society when they can't control an environment they have totalitarian control over!

As ever, it gets down to money and again - if they was to legalise some drugs and tax those as they have done with alcohol and tobacco, they could use that to fund all this and equally, make things better for all.

Sadly, many people see the issues and even those in a position to have a voice that is heard, but alas they soon shot down by those who just want to be seen to be doing their job, over actually doing it. That is very much prevalent within the police and again - all based upon experience. So you end up with a system that tackles the effect and not the root cause of what is responsible for the bulk of crime we see on the streets.

So in effect to fix the prisons - they need to fix the reasons why people are in those prisons.

But yes - rehab needs to happen, but equally it needs to be done right and properly - if they can't do that right in prisons, then they have no hope in society and that is exactly how it is alas.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#154
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"class" means something different in the UK than it does in the US. Wealth is often a side-effect but there are plenty of aristocrats without money who would still be considered upper-class. It's more a combination of social graces and breeding. In the USA, someone like Donald Trump would be considered upper class but would never be considered so in the UK.

Probably more "breeding" than "social graces" though, if Prince Andrew is any indication.

One can definitely have no money and still have class, or vice versa (as Andrew demonstrates).

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#155
YANML so I shall remain anonymous, and we will agree that what is below is a work of imaginative fiction:

I was presented with the temptation to commit the same crime that sent this guy to jail.

I made a movie with my brother and dad. We figured, how different could this be from software? (it wasn't really) Things got financially very complex, when more money got spent than we had. (I was not the one that spent it) Things got even more complex when my dad signed a deal with a production company to get us out of the hole (without my brother or I agreeing he could do this) They put in some money to pay invoices, and agreed to pay us ~$300,000 but as I recall being told, when it came to paying the money they wanted invoices for about a million worth of fake spend.

according to one of their staff members, they themselves were in the hole after making a movie with an oscar winner who'd who'd spent the whole shoot blitzed on coke. I didn't speak to them ever again after a confrontation on the last day of the shoot. I heard they were shocked when we refused to provide fake invoices, incredulous, that we wouldn't do something they considered film industry normal. (it's common, it's not normal)

What happened after that I can only piece together from rumours, which as I understand were:

They had assumed that we would provide the invoices and already submitted tax claims for film producer tax incentive payouts.

These supporting invoices were requested and they fled the country.

Every now and then someone tells me that they recognise me from tv.

TLDR: I got no money, but I didn't go to jail

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#156
post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

> The general public gets very vindictive This is a serious problem. Lots of people openly support violence, torture, rape and murder as long as they happen to prisoners. It's all part of the punishment.

And I also think most people don't understand what prison populations look like. Federal prisons are dominated by non-violent crimes; this report states fewer than 5% of federal inmates' most serious crimes were violent offenses. (1) The proportions are different in state prisons, but there non-violent offenders still make up about half of the population.

People are also completely misinformed about recidivism. Not only does keeping someone in prison for longer increase their risk of reoffending, the sort of crimes people are most afraid of tend to have some of the lowest recidivism rates. For instance, murderers are the least likely to reoffend out of any criminal category (2). Of course, this does have to be balanced against the seriousness of the offense if they do reoffend. But unfortunately, solitary and isolated instances of the best approach failing are turned into big political talking points -- i.e., the murderer who is released on parole and kills someone else a day later. Things like this are extremely rare, but the risk they carry as political hand-grenades means that the worse approach gets enacted almost universally.

And don't even get me started on the human rights disaster that is capital punishment. A barbaric punishment, outlawed by most developed nations; which unintentionally kills innocent people; which is more expensive than life imprisonment; and which does absolutely zero good in (a) preventing future crimes -- it has provably no power as a deterrent -- and (b) bringing back the victims who have died. We kill people because it's "what they deserve," as if the state has any right to decide whether its own citizens live or die.

(1) http://apps.urban.org/features/reducing-federal-mass-incarce... (2) https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2019.html

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#157
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of a time or condition in the past when Americans were more amenable to rehabilitation?

Johnny Cash played a concert at Folsom Prison. Can't see the public going along with something like that anymore. This isn't proof of a higher appetite for rehabilitation but it does seem that attitudes were a bit softer at the time. Conjugal visits are another thing that have been mostly eliminated, with just a couple of states still allowing them.

Johnny Cash's concert was in the late 60s, before the string of prison riots in the 70s which left several correction officers dead and the rest of the industry hyper-defensive (all of the riots, except one involving Cuban exiles who were going to be deported, were due to prison conditions AFAIK).

By this point, the war on drugs was in full swing and the prisons were filling up as fast as humanly possible.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#158
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The general public gets very vindictive This is a serious problem. Lots of people openly support violence, torture, rape and murder as long as they happen to prisoners. It's all part of the punishment.

Can you think of a time or condition in the past when Americans were more amenable to rehabilitation?

It's not just americans. No matter where we go we find humans with some sort of repressed aggressiveness in desperate need for an acceptable target to lash out against. Seems to be connected to authoritarianism.

Rehabilitation implies they want the criminals to be part of their society to begin with. They most likely want to keep dehumanizing and exploiting those groups.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The general public gets very vindictive This is a serious problem. Lots of people openly support violence, torture, rape and murder as long as they happen to prisoners. It's all part of the punishment.

And I also think most people don't understand what prison populations look like. Federal prisons are dominated by non-violent crimes; this report states fewer than 5% of federal inmates' most serious crimes were violent offenses. (1) The proportions are different in state prisons, but there non-violent offenders still make up about half of the population. People are also completely misinformed about recidivism. Not o…

> We kill people because it's "what they deserve," as if the state has any right to decide whether its own citizens live or die.

Sounds about right.

True justice is to undo the damage caused by the perpetrator. Unfortunately, it's impossible to do that. There's no way to restore a murdered person back to life or restore people's ability to feel safe in their own homes after it's been violated. Some damage always remains and it just can't be completely fixed.

So it's all about revenge, making people pay for what they've done and causing just as much if not more damage in return. For some reason, people can't just accept that things happened and that there's no fix. There must be balance in the universe and they can't move on with their lives if something isn't done to the people who hurt them. So we have judges, people who literally count infractions and calculate punishment. People who perpetrate sanctioned violence.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#160
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious: what do you think about the police in the UK going after people that post mean tweets on Twitter? Does it erode your faith in the police even further?

Honestly, twitter and the social media outlets should be on top of that and whilst many think it's a waste of time for the police to be doing that, they need to remember that there are laws pertaining to communications that equally apply to later technology and should be applied. So I'm just fine with them doing it and if anything, you could say they are a bit soft upon that front. I'd add that until these twitter cr…

That's really interesting to know. Thank you for your perspective!
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