Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#151

Post by u801e » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

fooblitzky wrote: post #145

u801e wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a bike commuter who's not exactly in Tour de France riding condition You don't need to be in "Tour de France" condition to take the lane on city streets (discounting your use of hyperbole). I do so all the time and intersection navigation is far easier when taking the lane than it is when forced to ride all the way to the right. Pedestrian style infrastructure is suitable for pedestrian speeds (3 to 6 mph), not…

Would you be comfortable with children or elderly people taking the lane though? "Vehicular cycling" has been around since the 1970's, and in practice it doesn't work. Protected bike infrastructure gets more people cycling, of all ages and abilities, because the number one reason people cite for not cycling is not feeling safe around cars. Telling them "you're really safer in the lane" doesn't work to allay their fea…

> Would you be comfortable with children or elderly people taking the lane though?

I'm middle aged, a bit overweight and tow two kids in a Burley Bee trailer and still take the lane. It doesn't require one to be able to sustain 25 to 30 mph speeds on flat ground. I go between 8 to 15 mph most of the time.

The only requirement is that they know the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. The elderly should know that if they have driving experience. Children who are older can be taught these rules. In fact in certain states, 14 year olds are legally allowed to drive and there is an expectation that they know the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles).

> Protected bike infrastructure gets more people cycling, of all ages and abilities

The problem is that when they get to intersections and they presume that they have the right-of-way when they don't or there's not enough time for turning vehicles or vehicles approaching the intersection to see them, they end up getting hit.

> Telling them "you're really safer in the lane" doesn't work to allay their fears,

The fear is not rational. There are people who are afraid of flying despite the fact that, statistically, it's far safer than driving. If they want to fly, then they need to deal with their irrational fear such that they can do so.

> and as the study showed, isn't even true statistically.

The study never made that claim. It did state that there's a correlation between overall traffic fatalities and city blocks with bicycle facilities. It didn't make the claim that bicycle fatalities specifically went down.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#152

Post by u801e » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #55

linuxftw wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This stuff is plainly obvious when you've rode 10s or 100s of times more miles than the researchers. I'd argue, the points you make are 100% obvious if you've ever been through any intersection on a bicycle and needed to go straight or left from one of these lanes. You don't need 'research' when something is obviously stupid, but that seems to be something we've forgotten as a society. Around me, they put these 'bi…

Yes I would say you're right and this stuff should be obvious immediately to any adult, especially one who also knows how to drive a car. But watching the behavior of "people on bikes" who are not "established cyclists" it seems as soon as everyone gets on a bike they initially go through a period of forgetting everything about how the road works, probably because they are super afraid of the cars. I don't think you…

> But watching the behavior of "people on bikes" who are not "established cyclists" it seems as soon as everyone gets on a bike they initially go through a period of forgetting everything about how the road works, probably because they are super afraid of the cars. I don't think you really can blame them, fear is a very real & serious thing and it makes us all forget how to think things through.

How do new car drivers deal with driving around trucks and buses? They're told that they need to obey the rules of the road and some additional things like not passing a truck on the right. We need to take the same approach with new cyclists (follow the rules of the road, signal your turns and lane changes, yield when don't have the right of way, don't pass turning traffic on the side their turning, etc).

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#153

Post by u801e » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 11:35 PM UTC

nogridbag wrote: post #72

jtms wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I also find it safer in NYC to just ride with traffic. I have had several collisions with pedestrians who decided they would just step out right in front of me into my “lane” and nearly door’d on a couple of other occasions

That makes me feel even worse now. The other day I stopped behind a cyclist at a red light on a major avenue in NYC. He was in the left lane and the bike lane is simply one more lane over. When the light turned green he took forever to get going and even after 20 seconds he was still going dangerously slow so I honked him and felt like a jerk. I did not understand why he simply didn't use the bike lane. The cross str…

> he was still going dangerously slow

On a city street that's essentially an oxymoron. You have to deal with stopped and slow traffic, turning traffic, etc. A slow cyclist should not be any different.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#154

Post by u801e » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #104

jxcl wrote: post #2

As a commuting cyclist I usually prefer to ride in the street than in a bike lane. Protected cycle lanes are great only so long as nobody turns to the right directly in front of you. When there are cars parked in between the cycle lane and the car lane it's much easier for the driver to miss the cyclist, and few people check the cycle lane before turning right. I was definitely guilty of this until I started cycling.…

Agreed. Bike lanes are where the most unpredictable stuff happens : the door zone, driveways, truck loading, tree-mulchers. Also, bike lanes are actually a sinister public policy that deliberately puts drivers against cyclists and here's why. Cities want to reduce traffic, but don't take the political risk to raise the costs of driving (fuel taxes, geofencing etc). Instead they build useless bike lanes with the delib…

> Also, bike lanes are actually a sinister public policy that deliberately puts drivers against cyclists

They're actually favored by motorists and facilities advocates since they get cyclists out of the way of cars. The unpredictable stuff you mention is just stuff that cyclists have to deal with for the convenience of motorists.

In fact, in New York the law for cyclists proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic states:

https://www.dot.ny.gov/display/programs/bicycle/safety_laws/...

>> Upon all roadways, any bicycle or in-line skate shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane has not been provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic

The last clause shows that it's not for safety; it's for the convenience of motorists.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#155

Post by gnopgnip » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 11:46 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #104

jxcl wrote: post #2

As a commuting cyclist I usually prefer to ride in the street than in a bike lane. Protected cycle lanes are great only so long as nobody turns to the right directly in front of you. When there are cars parked in between the cycle lane and the car lane it's much easier for the driver to miss the cyclist, and few people check the cycle lane before turning right. I was definitely guilty of this until I started cycling.…

Agreed. Bike lanes are where the most unpredictable stuff happens : the door zone, driveways, truck loading, tree-mulchers. Also, bike lanes are actually a sinister public policy that deliberately puts drivers against cyclists and here's why. Cities want to reduce traffic, but don't take the political risk to raise the costs of driving (fuel taxes, geofencing etc). Instead they build useless bike lanes with the delib…

This article is about protected bike lanes. Protected bike lanes do not have issues with truck loading or most of the other problems you mention.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#156

Post by u801e » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 11:57 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #51

I bike commute all the time and I want to share an experience from yesterday that EVERY cyclist will get. (I live in the PNW, so there are a lot of people that bike here) I was sitting at a stop sign, in a lane that has sharrows. Waiting for a car to go by I feel a push from behind and get almost pushed into the car I'm waiting for (my hands aren't on the breaks, by feet are on the ground). Adrenaline skyrockets, I l…

> There is a frequent challenge of avoiding doors being opened on you while also not pissing off the car following you in the sharrow road.

You have to ride at least 6 feet away from parked cars to avoid getting doored. As a cyclist who rides between the center and left tire track position in the lane by default, I don't really concern myself with pissing off people behind me. It's far less of a risk than getting door and falling into the traffic lane and subsequently getting run over.

That said, I will move over when there's room to let traffic by and then re-take the lane once they're past me.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#157

Post by u801e » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 12:04 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #79

matsemann wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'll regularly get harassed for riding in the street, even when you're all the way to the right I don't even understand the hate for riding in the middle. If a driver were to pass someone riding on the right, he would (should) have to move so far over that the next lane has to be empty. That is the same as if the bicyclist was in the middle. Riding to the right only invites cars to squeeze past. Take the lane, it…

Take the lane, but be aware of cars following. When they can't safely pass for a few minutes look for a long stretch where you can get out of their way.

What you can do is to wait when traffic is clear in the oncoming lane and move slightly over to the right and wave them by. When you see oncoming traffic, check your mirror, stick your left arm out, verify that the following vehicle is yielding to you and retake the lane.

This then ensures that cars pass you at a relatively low speed difference and you generally control when they pass you.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#158

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 12:05 AM UTC

Tsubasachan wrote: post #128

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree with that. But it is a problem we created ourselves because of our love for car culture, not that helmets should be mandatory in other more sane countries. There aren't a lot of brain injuries in the Netherlands from bike accidents, so there is no demand for them. China really isn't on the list of sane places, but traffic is slow enough that helmets might not matter much anyways. My point about china was…

Bicycle helmets aren't completely unknown, I see kids under 10 wearing them more. Cycling in the US isn't dangerous because of traffic or speed. Amsterdam has that in abundance! Its that American automobile drivers simply don't see bicycles let alone understand what they can and cannot do. Anything that isn't a car or truck does not compute.

I think it is the law for kids to wear helmets in the Netherlands until they are 12, but I'm not really clear about that.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#159

Post by u801e » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 12:05 AM UTC

hannasanarion wrote: post #25

chuckgreenman wrote: post #16

In Cincinnati, it's illegal to ride a bike on a sidewalk, which makes sense, it's not very pleasant for the cyclist or pedestrians. The result is that bicyclers ride in the street. You'll regularly get harassed for riding in the street, even when you're all the way to the right, or people will just open their door right into the lane when they street park. It's really difficult to travel with bicycles safely in a med…

Which is why there need to be bike lines, either between the parking lane and the sidewalk, so that it's protected from traveling cars, or on the left side of the travel lane so they're more visible and less likely to get doored.

> Which is why there need to be bike lines, either between the parking lane and the sidewalk,

The problem with this is when an intersection comes up, cars preparing to turn or approaching from an intersecting road cannot see the cyclist in time to avoid colliding with them.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#160

Post by u801e » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 12:10 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #69

chuckgreenman wrote: post #16

In Cincinnati, it's illegal to ride a bike on a sidewalk, which makes sense, it's not very pleasant for the cyclist or pedestrians. The result is that bicyclers ride in the street. You'll regularly get harassed for riding in the street, even when you're all the way to the right, or people will just open their door right into the lane when they street park. It's really difficult to travel with bicycles safely in a med…

> In Cincinnati, it's illegal to ride a bike on a sidewalk, which makes sense, it's not very pleasant for the cyclist or pedestrians. It doesn't make any sense to protect pedestrians from having to deal with larger, faster, heavier vehicles, that may injure them, by forcing cyclists into the street, where they have to deal with larger, faster, heavier vehicles that may kill them.

How do drivers of cars deal with driving among trucks and buses?