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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#151

Post by xxs »

shawnz wrote: post #133
stingraycharles wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the parent is talking about the JVM's JIT, where it compiles java bytecode into machine instructions after loading the application. This is why the first few requests on a JVM are usually considerably slower than the rest. Parent is obviously exaggerating with the 5000x, and he could have made his point in a different way, but there's some truth to it.

At the same time, JIT can outperform native code in some specific circumstances, since there are certain optimizations which can be proven safe at runtime which can not be guaranteed to be safe at compile time

Actually one of the less known features of the JIT is the ability to deoptimize/recompile based on CHA (class hierarchy analysis) or pushed compilation request via invokeDynamic&friends.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#152

Post by sanxiyn »

jptoto wrote: post #146
pron wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am just a little uneasy with Oracle lurking around, I just don't know what they are going to do next. What do you mean by "lurking"? Oracle is the company developing OpenJDK, and it will continue to do so. All our projects are done in the open, with lots of communication.

The licensing has gotten super onerous.

What licensing? OpenJDK is licensed under GPLv2 plus Classpath exception, the same as ever.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#154

Post by pron »

jptoto wrote: post #146
pron wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am just a little uneasy with Oracle lurking around, I just don't know what they are going to do next. What do you mean by "lurking"? Oracle is the company developing OpenJDK, and it will continue to do so. All our projects are done in the open, with lots of communication.

The licensing has gotten super onerous.

The licensing has gotten far better. First, Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK for the first time ever, and second, instead of offering a mixed free/paid, open/proprietary JDK (with -XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures flags), it now offers the JDK under either a completely free and open license (under the name OpenJDK) or a commercial license for Oracle support subscription customers (under the name Oracle JDK).

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#155

Post by electrotype »

At one point, you have to stop "looking for the next magical/better thing".

You pick something mature enough, that works well, and you ignore new cool trends (anyway there will be cooler things soon enough).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecIWPzGEbFc

What I am trying to do with my framework, https://www.spincast.org , is to ignore new cool trends as much as possible and focus on real use cases. Comments welcome.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#156

Post by lgessler »

inertiatic wrote: post #15

It's a bit disturbing how much people in this industry are focused on tooling. It's a biproduct IMO of working on boring problems or supporting morally ambiguous corps. That thing that you need to keep yourself busy and keep going in the rat race.

I'm not sure I disagree with you, but I think the counterpoint is worth stating: that a compiler is the beginning, not the end, of a productive software engineering toolkit, and that there is no software stack that has achieved perfect tooling—quite on the contrary, I think it might be fair to say that most languages lack a great deal of tooling.

There's every reason to think that software engineers and system administrators do their job much more quickly and correctly when they have the support of rich editor support, understandable compiler errors, usable interactive debuggers, profilers, dependency management that won't set your hair on fire, etc. For whatever reason, it seems like businesses often aren't interested or successful in creating these products, so frustrated developers step in to create the tools they dream of in their own work after too many days spent refactoring with regex.

It's possible that people might be drawn to tooling projects because of some kind of internalized revulsion in response to the social impact of their employer, but I think you'd expect to see developers working on tooling regardless of whether or not this is the case because of how a lot of development tooling just wouldn't exist if it weren't for individual FOSS contributors' efforts.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#157

Post by gerbilly »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #97
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

True, but java carries a lot of legacy.

Yeah, there is the legacy of the thousands of mature libraries, frameworks and development tools.

Legacy isn't always a bad thing.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#158

Post by WorldMaker »

GordonS wrote: post #136
paulmd wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# is a better language. Java 8 started to catch up with some of the quality-of-live niceties, but Java has a lot of mistakes baked into the language and interfaces that can't be removed without potentially breaking a lot of stuff, which the consortium is not willing to do. C# and DotNet were designed with the wisdom gained from the early days of Java implementation and sidestepped a lot of these messes. Java has a s…

Packet is a great alternative to the NuGet client. Tooling might be slightly behind Java's, but honestly, there's not much in it. Dotnet Core might only have been available on Linux for a few years, but Mono was around for many before that. The dotnet CLI also recently got the concept of 'global tools', which are akin to NPMs. A lot of work is also underway on better cross-platform performance analysis, crash dump ha…

According to the roadmap, Mono's JVM interop used for Xamarin Android will be making its way more directly into .NET Core and will light up on almost every platform, which would give .NET greater, direct access to the Java ecosystem as well.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#159

Post by mixmastamyk »

paulmd wrote: post #125
mfatica wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this compare to the .NET ecosystem?

C# is a better language. Java 8 started to catch up with some of the quality-of-live niceties, but Java has a lot of mistakes baked into the language and interfaces that can't be removed without potentially breaking a lot of stuff, which the consortium is not willing to do. C# and DotNet were designed with the wisdom gained from the early days of Java implementation and sidestepped a lot of these messes. Java has a s…

What about Kotlin?

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#160

Post by xfer »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #107
gambler wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling is great for job security. You can be absolutely shit at writing code and designing systems, yet make yourself indispensable because you know Framework X and most other people don't. All it takes is time to memorize trivia of the framework and a bit of trial-and-error to figure out how to work around framework's pitfalls. Unfortunately, this creates a whole host of long-term issues. For example, it create the…

> you add tools to manage tools to manage other tools and so on. Each new layer reinforces the job security of people working on the previous one. The first time I seen a job title of "Kubernetes Keeper" I died a little inside. It's not that these jobs didn't exist before, and sysadmin is a perfectly good role which I personally don't have the skills or desire to do, but we keep pretending that we've build a way of r…

Yeah it's much better to list a dozen tools/frameworks that you must be expert at than just making it clear about the current requirements.
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