After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again • Hacker News Board

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#151

Post by robbiep » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

disiplus wrote: post #139

slg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

i would not take those chances. if the self driving car is only slightly better then average driver in fatal accidents that's not good enough. most of accidents happen because of distractions (texting and so on) and if a self driving car is only slightly better then average driver I can get a lot better if I just don't use my smartphone while driving and don't sit behind a wheel tired. so it's not enough to be better…

You’re implying that agency is the element that is most desired. Ie if a human crashes and kills themselves/others, it is ok, because someone is at fault.

If the car is anywhere from slightly to quite a lot safer, but accidents that result in injuries/deaths occur, then it is not ok.

Psychologically you may feel this to be ‘right’ but I would prefer a world with less injuries and deaths all round. And one day the courts will too

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#152

Post by eclipxe » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

x38iq84n wrote: post #2

I have always wondered... Does the AP have some higher-level notion of object permanence, continuity (road behind a horizon or after a curve) and things like that? Does it track a pedestrian that is momentarily hidden behind an obstacle and will probably reemerge in a second or two on the other side? Does it expect that kids may run after that ball that just flew from behind a car? Does it continuously track and impr…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACZACXgreQ

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#153

Post by rayiner » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #106

SilasX wrote: post #7

I would be a lot more forgiving of these screwups if Tesla didn't constantly swear up and down that they've solved self-driving cars. As far back as 2016 they were claiming they had full SDC capability above human driver safety [1], and their recent Model Y announcement suggests that the only thing holding it up is regulatory approval, and not failure to achieve the desired spec. >Model Y will have Full Self-Driving…

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. We're not even at the point where we're comparing safety rates. Can a Model Y drive through DC? Can it ignore traffic signals in favor of following hand signals from a uniformed traffic officer, or follow the directions of a construction worker having traffic in turns through a road that they've decided to turn into one lane? Can it deal with an unannounced presidential motorcade rerouting traffic? Because that happens literally every day in DC. If Tesla can't handle that, it's inaccurate to say it has "full SDC," even before you get into an analysis of safety.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#154

Post by DarmokJalad1701 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

newnewpdro wrote: post #104

I find it absurd how the NHTSA doesn't treat Tesla similarly to how it treated Toyota ~10 years ago with the sudden unintended acceleration controversy. [1] Tesla has demonstrably flawed and dangerous vehicles operating on our roads. These persistent autopilot bugs are killing people. If we treated the Tesla autopilot as a licensed driver, it'd have its license suspended. (Not that it could have passed a driving test…

> These persistent autopilot bugs are killing people.

Are there any numbers on this?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#155

Post by rayiner » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #143

disiplus wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i would not take those chances. if the self driving car is only slightly better then average driver in fatal accidents that's not good enough. most of accidents happen because of distractions (texting and so on) and if a self driving car is only slightly better then average driver I can get a lot better if I just don't use my smartphone while driving and don't sit behind a wheel tired. so it's not enough to be better…

You are setting up a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between Autopilot and paying attention. The video above is an obvious example. It didn't result in an accident because the driver was paying attention and intervened. Also you aren't considering that other drivers can be the cause of a potential accident. You can assume that the other drivers on the road are average drivers with all the distractions that…

> You are setting up a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between Autopilot and paying attention. The video above is an obvious example. It didn't result in an accident because the driver was paying attention and intervened.

If you have to pay attention, then you might as well be driving.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#156

Post by matz1 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

erobbins wrote: post #138

I think Tesla eventually has a catastrophic accident and is sued and/or criminally prosecuted into oblivion. I feel sorry for the people who are going to have to die for this to happen. This trope that humans are bad drivers is, in general, crap. Humans are very good drivers. The US has 7.3 deaths per billion km driven. This means if you drive 50km a day, every day, you are (essentially) guaranteed to die... after 75…

I hope not, yes there will be death, nothing is perfect, but i will just consider it an acceptable loss.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#157

Post by btilly » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #150

slg wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a classic trolley problem. Is it worth killing a group of innocent people if it will save a larger group of innocent people? I can certainly see why people might be pushing for caution against Tesla since we don't know the size of either of those groups.

It could theoretically be a trolley problem. In practice Tesla are probably not that safe if you compare them driving themselves on freeways to humans driving under the same conditions.

I was going to point you to a study showing that autosteer reduced accidents by 40%, but Google told me that this was recently shown to be wrong. In fact it increased accidents by 60%.

See https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/02/in-2017-the-feds-said-t... for details and verification.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#158

Post by malms » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

throwaway789214 wrote: post #130

rhino369 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what’s the point of it? Not steering but needing to able to steer immediately seems much more mentally taxing than just steering.

Do not use it if it is net negative for you but if you do, follow the instructions. You can't have the cake and eat it. There are a lot of people at Tesla working fulltime on auto-pilot and some drivers think they know better than them by disregarding their instructions how to use it? Frankly, that's just crazy.

You are a retard.

Tesla is calling the thing "autopilot", only say "keep hands om wheel" for purely judicial reasons. As a consequence it is a more dangerous system overall because full attention is always better than the "partial attention" state in which driver are with autopilot. Then it blames people for having accidents...

This is hypocrisy at its finest. Please open your eyes and see the biggest picture.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#159

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #71

muzika wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasingly, cities will be expected to plan roads in a way that would be simpler for autonomous vehicles to bavigate.

And humans. If two lanes in the default path of highway driving (stay left to continue) are closed half the day, I’d expect some blinking sign overhead saying “two left lanes closed ahead, stay right”. I guess DOT would have the records of people making the mistake to know if there’s enough value from implementing another signal for what you’ll have to do up ahead. Dunno if Tesla reads signs or not (or used scanned s…

Wow. Where I'm currently at they'll put up "left lane closed signs" and you don't know if it's the left lane, the right lane, or neither, that's actually closed until you get there.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#160

Post by disiplus » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #143

disiplus wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i would not take those chances. if the self driving car is only slightly better then average driver in fatal accidents that's not good enough. most of accidents happen because of distractions (texting and so on) and if a self driving car is only slightly better then average driver I can get a lot better if I just don't use my smartphone while driving and don't sit behind a wheel tired. so it's not enough to be better…

You are setting up a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between Autopilot and paying attention. The video above is an obvious example. It didn't result in an accident because the driver was paying attention and intervened. Also you aren't considering that other drivers can be the cause of a potential accident. You can assume that the other drivers on the road are average drivers with all the distractions that…

i was talking about self driving cars, not really Tesla autopilot. but do you really think this (paying attention and correcting autopilot mistakes) would not be a bigger problem knowing well that no.1 reason of accidents is not paying attention.

yea, other drivers are also part of this, but even then I would like something alot better then average. sure there is a chance a distracted teenager is riding somewhere around you, but it's not better if there is now 10 slightly less distracted teenagers around you.

average is really not a great measure here if we are talking about self driving cars.