After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again • Hacker News Board

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#141

Post by slg » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

skwb wrote: post #132

slg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

No, it's still the issue. If there's a bug in the software code for a programmable pacemaker, it doesn't matter if the fundamental design is flawed. For governmental regulators, it's the actual implimentation and real world performance that matters. Sure, a bug fix for a routine being called is maybe easier to fix, but the real world performance is still the important metric to track.

Ok, but a lot of people are arguing something along the lines of "there is a bug in the pacemaker, let's take take out everyone's pacemakers".

I am not saying we shouldn't be critical of Tesla or hold them accountable for their product. My point is simply that their product doesn't have to be infallible for it to still be an improvement over the current solution.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#142

Post by Scoundreller » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

stagger87 wrote: post #30

Scoundreller wrote: post #20

That’s a very strange way to close a highway. Where are the blinkenlights? The words? The flashing arrows? The plastic jersey barriers? The buckets full of sand or water? The repainted lines directing you to the right? Can’t tell if this is temporary or long-term closure, but if it’s a multi month thing, I would expect more “Don’t you dare fork to the left” signalling. Not everyone is a local.

I would think the several reflective construction signs with arrows would be enough. Also there is an impact attenuator (buckets of water). It's also cut too soon to the turn to know whether there was more signs leading up to it.

The only reflective gate that swings into the second lane from the left is after the barrier.

I checked the street view linked above and followed it back: no signs.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#143

Post by slg » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

disiplus wrote: post #139

slg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to dismiss your whole point, because it is certainly valid, but that isn't really the issue here. It is entirely possible for bugs like this to exist in the self driving tech and for Tesla to be correct in their claims that Autopilot is on average safer than a human driver. It is obviously troubling to see self driving cars run into solid and stationary objects, but human drivers do that all the time too…

i would not take those chances. if the self driving car is only slightly better then average driver in fatal accidents that's not good enough. most of accidents happen because of distractions (texting and so on) and if a self driving car is only slightly better then average driver I can get a lot better if I just don't use my smartphone while driving and don't sit behind a wheel tired. so it's not enough to be better…

You are setting up a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between Autopilot and paying attention. The video above is an obvious example. It didn't result in an accident because the driver was paying attention and intervened.

Also you aren't considering that other drivers can be the cause of a potential accident. You can assume that the other drivers on the road are average drivers with all the distractions that come along with that. If you make the other drivers on average slightly safer, that improves your safety even if your behavior is completely unchanged.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#144

Post by DarmokJalad1701 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

x38iq84n wrote: post #5

sschueller wrote: post #4

Eventually we need the NTSB to certify updates before they are pushed out over the air. Similar to what the FAA does. These OTA updates are not ok for large machinery and endagers not only the Tesla driver but all others on the road.

Indeed. I have never understood the cheering for OTA of something that can literally kill you. Were they limited to infotainment and the useless easter eggs I would not care, however AP OTA is downright scary, especially pushed by vendor instead of being initiated by an informed user.

It is initiated by the user ... the update only happens after you give say it's okay to do so.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#145

Post by eclipxe » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #60

I have been yelling about this for a long time: Tesla is not going to be able to deliver full self-driving as promised. They don't have the hardware, for one (ranging is terrible; they need stereo cameras), and second, their software strategy seems to be a dead end. They need sensor fusion. The system needs to make maximum use of all the information available to it: Where is the road striping? Where are the other car…

They do have stereo cameras and sensor fusing, as well as detecting more than just the lines in the road. Here is what the camera sees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACZACXgreQ

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#146

Post by jakeogh » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

muzika wrote: post #66

jakeogh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would any of that be relevant?

Increasingly, cities will be expected to plan roads in a way that would be simpler for autonomous vehicles to bavigate.

The SDC concept vastly underestimates the processing power of wetware. The tendencies to view humans as the bugs and to add rules to make reality more predictable are just excuses to avoid the real issue.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#147

Post by Joe-Z » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

erobbins wrote: post #138

I think Tesla eventually has a catastrophic accident and is sued and/or criminally prosecuted into oblivion. I feel sorry for the people who are going to have to die for this to happen. This trope that humans are bad drivers is, in general, crap. Humans are very good drivers. The US has 7.3 deaths per billion km driven. This means if you drive 50km a day, every day, you are (essentially) guaranteed to die... after 75…

Cars have gotten so safe though. There's all this measures put in place to ensure your survival _in case of a crash_. Wouldn't it be more relevant to calculate the chances of getting injured / end up in a crash at all?

I mean just being caught up in a traffic accident and have no bodily harm done to you can be a traumatic event.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#148

Post by DarmokJalad1701 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

txcwpalpha wrote: post #89

Dumblydorr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone puts their lives in the hands of other machines daily, for instance brakes or automated elevators or medical devices; driving is an inherently dangerous activity. Computer or human won't change that. If we delay computers getting better than humans, we will just have status quo which is 30k or more road deaths yearly in the US.

Elevators and medical devices go through extensive testing and certification processes before they ever go near being put into service. And when they are updated, they again go through extensive testing and certification. Teslas, on the other hand, apparently change their handling and driving profile overnight at the whim of the software engineers at Tesla, without even telling the drivers , and introducing bugs like…

> apparently change their handling and driving profile overnight at the whim of the software engineers at Tesla, without even telling the drivers

OTA updates only happen after confirmed by the users. Where did you hear that it happens without user intervention?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#149

Post by jessaustin » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

throwaway789214 wrote: post #130

rhino369 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what’s the point of it? Not steering but needing to able to steer immediately seems much more mentally taxing than just steering.

Do not use it if it is net negative for you but if you do, follow the instructions. You can't have the cake and eat it. There are a lot of people at Tesla working fulltime on auto-pilot and some drivers think they know better than them by disregarding their instructions how to use it? Frankly, that's just crazy.

Perhaps those drivers don't have your inside view of Tesla R&D?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#150

Post by tim333 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #135

ketzo wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s one of those thorny AI-human problems, though — if I crash 1 in 10 drives, it’s my fault, and therefore much easier to rationalize to be, well, not my fault. If my Tesla crashes 1 in 100 drives, it’s a faulty machine and an obvious death trap.

It is a classic trolley problem. Is it worth killing a group of innocent people if it will save a larger group of innocent people? I can certainly see why people might be pushing for caution against Tesla since we don't know the size of either of those groups.

It could theoretically be a trolley problem. In practice Tesla are probably not that safe if you compare them driving themselves on freeways to humans driving under the same conditions.