Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#151

Post by kristopolous » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

There's either a cost or benefit of everyone on the team. Programmers generally push the code at a constant velocity in one trajectory between the two.

They'll be somewhere between fixing things and making it better to breaking things and creating new problems that eventually need to be undone and re-solved, pushing the quality down and deadlines back.

People tending towards the second group are a waste of time and money. As a hiring manager, to be completely brutal, unless they can demonstrate they are in or have high potential to be near the first group, I simply do not care.

The contribution value of people in the second group is not zero, it's actually negative. Their bad decisions and buggy creations decrease the quality of the product. It's like putting an saboteur on the payroll and then handing them important responsibilities. The team likely becomes friends with them (friendships at work happen about 10 times for every 1 enemy) and this makes reversing the mistake even harder because after all, we are social creatures at heart.

What's worse, after the inevitable breakup, I then have to re-allocate my quality assets away from pushing the product forward to cleaning up the mess someone just left and things stop getting done in the meantime.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#152

Post by icemelt8 » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:27 AM UTC

Just yesterday I took an interview of a frontend developer, we were looking for a ReactJS developer, the candidate wrote ReactJS on his CV.

When I asked him if he had done any projects on React, he said no because the current employer has apps only in Angular.

I said its ok, have you done any personal projects or side project in ReactJS? He said no. I didn't hire him.

Dude, how hard it is to make a basic project in a framework you're interested in getting a job for? Will this fly in any other discipline?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#153

Post by bloomca » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:30 AM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #151

There's either a cost or benefit of everyone on the team. Programmers generally push the code at a constant velocity in one trajectory between the two. They'll be somewhere between fixing things and making it better to breaking things and creating new problems that eventually need to be undone and re-solved, pushing the quality down and deadlines back. People tending towards the second group are a waste of time and m…

It is indeed negative, because not only they can break some things, but their code has to be reviewed thoroughly, and more experienced developers usually have to spend some of their time teaching them some concepts, which will slow down everyone.

Of course, not everybody is like that, but some people are, and here is the danger.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#154

Post by freewilly1040 » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:32 AM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #151

There's either a cost or benefit of everyone on the team. Programmers generally push the code at a constant velocity in one trajectory between the two. They'll be somewhere between fixing things and making it better to breaking things and creating new problems that eventually need to be undone and re-solved, pushing the quality down and deadlines back. People tending towards the second group are a waste of time and m…

I think this is the right answer, though I think there's a mentoring element that has to be considered. Plenty of people will break things if left unsupervised but will learn quickly to contribute if they get the right feedback.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#155

Post by bloomca » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:32 AM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #12

False premise. There is no shortage of devs. That has been a complete fabrication, made up entirely by big tech companies, in a propaganda push to promote more and more people getting into CS. It's entirely so they can pay developers less.

There is shortage of experienced developers.

Big companies can hire more trying to get away from competition, but some people would go to startups anyway (especially recent graduates).

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#156

Post by sheepmullet » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:32 AM UTC

jib wrote: post #134

ako wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this only happens if the place training the junior doesn't offer them a decent medium/senior salary. This probably also means they won't be able to attract new medior develops, since they pay too little.

Prisoners dilemma. New guys are expensive (especially in time), experienced guys are valuable. If I spend a bunch of money/time on new guys I have less to spend on experienced guys compared to the company that just spends it on experienced guys. So, the companies that don’t train new can pay experienced more, thus getting the experienced guys.

> If I spend a bunch of money/time on new guys I have less to spend on experienced guys compared to the company that just spends it on experienced guys.

That is the theory - in practice it is a bit different.

It takes a lot longer to become a senior who can easily switch business domains and tech stacks than it does to skill up in a single business domain and tech stack combo.

Two years in house is easily comparable with 5-6 years on the market if you work in a complex domain and have a good training program.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#157

Post by oh-kumudo » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:33 AM UTC

nathanvanfleet wrote: post #129

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

Kind of curious about what you're saying. Essentially that when the dev is getting up to speed with that training they quickly become more valuable to the company but the company isn't willing to acknowledge it?

One thing the current company oftentime couldn't offer is a change of scope and focus, bigger companies tend to be better since they have many more teams that work on very different projects.

Another observation I had is that the upwards mobility is easier in between companies than within the company. The sad truth is, most companies only acknowledge your importance when they are about to lose you. If they consider you are comfortable in your position, they have no incentive to promote you. So assessing yourself against the job market periodically is a logical and practical way to keep your career path in check, regardless of your company.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#158

Post by TripleCrown » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:35 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #104

dharmab wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.

On the contrary, I quit my job without having a job to move into, only $1000 savings and a credit card, and then moved to Australia. Everything worked out well and it was the best decision I ever made. Upon saying that, I knew that there were a lot of jobs available, and I was also willing to do any kind of job, not just software engineering. If push came to shove, I was willing to go back to working in construction…

In Australia, you'd probably make more money in construction vs software engineering.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#159

Post by bloomca » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:36 AM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #52

The weirdest part about this is how many companies fail to properly estimate the degree to which per-project on-the-job-training / on-boarding is inevitable even if you check every language/datastore/framework/tooling box they could possibly ask for . Checking those boxes can be helpful, but unless there's no value in your software other than that provided by the l/d/f/t, your software has something like domain speci…

Onboarding in domain specifics is different.

Language and programming fundaments have to be taught, and companies rarely have any decent processes around it, and it eats a lot of time from other developers. Domain knowledge can be gathered from literally anyone in the company, and also unless you are a senior, you don't need that much of understanding.

Moreover, you can do some tasks without knowing anything – fixing nasty bugs nobody has time for, automating some stuff. During doing that you can get some ideas what it is about. Another point is that person with experience already immersed into other/same domain in the past projects.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#160

Post by fizx » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 6:37 AM UTC

While you might say "I don't know React, but will start learning it as soon as I come into work," someone else is saying "React is so cool! Yeah, I haven't done much with it, but I was playing around with it the other week and I made a little todo app. My code was so much cleaner than doing it the old way."

Which person gets hired?

Companies are willing to do on-the-job training, as long as the person appears enthusiastic and the gap between your current skills and the target isn't too large.

P.S. A cynical person would say that you don't even need to have followed along with some todo app tutorial unless they call your bluff and ask to see code. :)