Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#101

Post by Radim » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:28 AM UTC

noufalibrahim wrote: post #66

I run a mentoring organisation which I started because of my interest in teaching. I used to help the graduates find jobs that they liked. After a couple of years, I started a small services company of my own and started to hire mostly out of my own student pool. I'm very happy with the decision. I develop rapport with the students (and later employees). A 4 month training program, while beneficial for the students,…

That's what we did, too. As a company, we formalized our open source R&D activities (https://github.com/RaRe-Technologies) and launched a "Student Incubator" programme.

Junior people around the world get to benefit from the mentorship, and we get access to talented people early on. Without that much internal risk, since it's open source.

The problem is exactly as you describe: scaling. Mentoring is an extremely time-intensive process and when things go rough, such "charity" activities are the first to suffer.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#102

Post by eximius » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:28 AM UTC

deepGem wrote: post #57

eximius wrote: post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

I am just curious, why do you need to test somone's ability to find max of a list. Language designers have recognized this as a basic utility and incorporated them into the language. Is the hypothesis that - if someone cannot write a simple algo to find the max of a list then what other difficult tasks he/she can perform ? Even though in reality we all understand no one needs to write a max algorithm.

As everyone else has said, it's essentially just a fizzbuzz test without using FizzBuzz. I don't need someone to write an algorithm to compute max, but I DO need someone who can take simple verbal requirements and write a program to do it. Everyone understands max/min/mean/median (or can quickly understand if they are unfamiliar). If they can't take that concept and apply it to code, then I don't trust them with inevitably more complex requirements.

One problem we just encountered in production that I'm trying to work into a prompt was our impression generation created a large amount of duplicates. Identifying the duplicates and eliminating them takes some simple verbal requirements but has a lot of depth. If they cant't do max/min/mean/median, they surely can't do answer that (which our least senior developer was able to do, with guidance (mostly on optimization)).

We have other questions that are much more relevant to day-to-day tasks, but both kinds are important.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#103

Post by oh-kumudo » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:30 AM UTC

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training.

In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better job offer not only for money but also better aligned with their self-interests.

From the companies' perspective, they might find such high attribution rate stays against their own favor, making providing necessary training uneconomical for them, both in time and money.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#104

Post by toomanybeersies » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:31 AM UTC

dharmab wrote: post #33

aphextron wrote: post #28

>I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead) and have had...way too many interviews and rejections, and can't understand why companies are such sticklers for interested devs to have Every Single Box in their list of requirements checked when it would take days or a couple weeks to lea…

Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.

On the contrary, I quit my job without having a job to move into, only $1000 savings and a credit card, and then moved to Australia.

Everything worked out well and it was the best decision I ever made.

Upon saying that, I knew that there were a lot of jobs available, and I was also willing to do any kind of job, not just software engineering. If push came to shove, I was willing to go back to working in construction or hospitality.

I also had a backup plan if all else failed, which was to fly back home and stay with my parents while I sorted my life out.

My advice would be to not quit your job without a plan and a plan B.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#105

Post by hvaoc » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:32 AM UTC

Don’t lose hope, it’s just that you haven’t met the right team yet. I have seen many times senior folks are hired to cover the hiring teams back in case something goes down south. You cannot shift the blame if you hire juniors. Am a senior and I believe passionate people do great work irrespective of their age. Reach me (find my email from my profile) if you just want to talk, will be happy to share whatever that I know. Am a full stack engineer.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#106

Post by sytelus » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

The problem is that you are identifying yourself as "front-end UI/interaction dev". Once you shoe horn yourself like this, your job offers would depend on what you know in this area. It's not that companies don't want to do on the job training but the fact that failure of you not knowing X while claiming to have specific specialization would be a put off.

All of the Big-5s hire massive amount of folks straight out of college or just 1-2 years of experience. They don't even care which programming language you know, let alone knowing specific framework during the interviews. The important part is becoming a generalist, a problem solver who can tackle anything that comes on the way while developing a product.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#107

Post by seniorsassycat » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

I owe my career to on the job training. My first programming job was at a small shop in New Jersey. Their interview had me write a loop, not even fizzbuzz. They asked if I knew JavaScript, Ruby, css, HTML, or SQL, I said no for all of them. They hired me ("at least you haven't learned bad habits") taught me rails, git and about as much about software development as I learned finishing college. I took the job summer after freshman year and worked every summer till after junior year when I interned at Amazon.

Showing up at Amazon felt like starting over again, I had so much to learn.

I think those experiences formed my attitude, I spend a lot of time learning new things at work, because I've always learned at work.

I think I'm good at my job, I just got promoted to senior engineer, and I attribute it all to my first job being willing teaching me.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#108

Post by spike021 » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:39 AM UTC

eximius wrote: post #102

deepGem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just curious, why do you need to test somone's ability to find max of a list. Language designers have recognized this as a basic utility and incorporated them into the language. Is the hypothesis that - if someone cannot write a simple algo to find the max of a list then what other difficult tasks he/she can perform ? Even though in reality we all understand no one needs to write a max algorithm.

As everyone else has said, it's essentially just a fizzbuzz test without using FizzBuzz. I don't need someone to write an algorithm to compute max, but I DO need someone who can take simple verbal requirements and write a program to do it. Everyone understands max/min/mean/median (or can quickly understand if they are unfamiliar). If they can't take that concept and apply it to code, then I don't trust them with inev…

>One problem we just encountered in production that I'm trying to work into a prompt was our impression generation created a large amount of duplicates. Identifying the duplicates and eliminating them takes some simple verbal requirements but has a lot of depth. If they cant't do max/min/mean/median, they surely can't do answer that (which our least senior developer was able to do, with guidance (mostly on optimization)).

Does that problem not require separate thought processes though?

In terms of a max/min/mean/median style problem, the candidate needs to come up with an algorithmic solution to find those values. In the later case of finding duplicates, there is minimal (depending on problem complexity, I suppose) amount of algorithmic complexity and the focus is more on data structures; for instance, does the candidate know they could use a data structure like a hashmap or variant to find unique items with the drawback being an additional storage unit.

So, I guess what I'm trying to trace back to is how you say if they can't answer one then surely they can't solve the other, but (while relatively 'simple' problems) I'd argue they take different mindsets to solve. Obviously in the grand scheme of things one mindset works for both, but in this it can vary a bit.

Anyway, late-night thoughts so hopefully that's not a jumbled-up response.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#109

Post by flukus » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:41 AM UTC

One aspect that no one has mentioned but I've experienced with interns is that some juniors don't want to learn. Some think college taught them everything they'll need, others just have no idea how to learn on their own without hand holding after 14+ years in the education factory.

I'm a big believer in education and training people I like teaching and I'll put in a lot of my own time to come up with projects within their skill level and tutor them through various things like debugging, but when that's not reciprocated by them having a desire/ability to learn you really feel burnt out.

I'd be much more willing to put time into people that are self taught, but HR will only give me college graduates.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#110

Post by gigatexal » Thu, Nov 22, 2018, 5:41 AM UTC

seniorsassycat wrote: post #107

I owe my career to on the job training. My first programming job was at a small shop in New Jersey. Their interview had me write a loop, not even fizzbuzz. They asked if I knew JavaScript, Ruby, css, HTML, or SQL, I said no for all of them. They hired me ("at least you haven't learned bad habits") taught me rails, git and about as much about software development as I learned finishing college. I took the job summer a…

Me too. I was a know-nothing kid from off the street with a newly minted economics degree. And I learned SQL as a Junior DBA and now I’m a Senior Python developer at a startup in Germany. Tutoring from senior level coworkers and home study is how I got to where I’m at. I try to give back where I can too!