Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK • Hacker News Board

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#151

Post by geofft » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

thevardanian wrote: post #130

geofft wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assange's little difficulties with women ... not everyone has a squeaky clean character To be clear about his "little difficulties", he's been accused of intentionally breaking a condom he was using when having sex with one woman (both of them have stated that the condom broke) and continuing a sexual encounter with another person while refusing to use a condom. As the article states, he's escaped trial because he…

What is the evidence that happened?

What is the evidence that these are the accusations, or what is the evidence that the accusations are true? I obviously don't know that the accusations are true. Swedish prosecutors think they have evidence of that. That's what I was hoping a court case would decide. I think the government should treat him as innocent until proven guilty, of course, like any civilized person, but like any civilized person I also think trials should happen.

If you're interested in evidence that these are the accusations, see e.g. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Sex-accusers-bo... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_... or https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange... or http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-14/julian-assange-to-be-i... or really a Google search for 'assange condom'.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#152

Post by resters » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #147

resters wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Snowden's leaks would have been better sent to Wikileaks. We've seen perhaps 5% of the information, and much of the illegal behavior is likely still going on. The only hope that US intel agencies have to redeem themselves as working toward the interests of the people and not against them is to be totally transparent about all illegal behavior and to undergo a full audit to stop all of it.

Which is exactly my point. Whistleblowing shouldn't be done with a shotgun approach that reveals all secrets. Every piece of information should be reviewed and judged in a vacuum as to whether there is a benefit to the public for it to be revealed. Wikileaks just releases everything and doesn't care about the public value or any negative results from that release. That isn't whistleblowing. You are free to agree poli…

I will continue to ponder your point, but I am inclined to disagree. Suppose we consider a two page document of classified information. Leaking one or two sentences from the document can be done in a highly misleading way.

In fact, our officials routinely leak information in this way, fed to reporters to spin a narrative that supports a political goal.

But seeing a trove of documents can make the broader malfeasance much more clear.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#153

Post by kej » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #128

scottmf wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Assange is no hero. His communications with Trump Jr and the leaked Wikileaks chats make that clear—as well as his meetings with people like Nigel Farage and Dana Rohrabacher. Assange has had a very clear agenda for some time now.

If you were Assange and you were trying to convince Trump Jr to hand over documents to you, would you pretend to be indifferent about the outcome of the election? Assange wants to help reveal any secret information that will help fix the many problems stemming from secrecy and corruption of governments and institutions. Every one of his actions have supported that mission. The focus on Assange's alleged political vie…

WikiLeaks sat on Manafort's group sex and blood money texts, but released Podesta's emails less than an hour after the Access Hollywood tape was published. His agenda was more than an act to get on Don Jr.'s good side.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#154

Post by geofft » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #9

What I've wanted for Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, and Chelsea Manning, and if Obama would have done it before leaving office, it would have earned him infinite respect: Try them, possibly even find them guilty of something, but also award them with the Presidential Medal of Freedom. What these people have done is probably illegal, but it is unquestionably about the most American, patriotic act you could commit. Sp…

> It makes me profoundly sad how the world (or at least my world, mostly far left, liberal, educated, etc.) has turned so hard against Julian Assange. He's a hero in every sense of the word.

In my world, heroes don't run from sexual assault trials.

Is he afraid of prison, or of the sexual assault prosecution being a sham to punish him for what he published? Chelsea Manning was prosecuted and sentenced and more-or-less tortured for the actual things she leaked. She's a hero - she did the right thing for the country even though she knew what it would cost her. She didn't run. She was sitting in solitary confinement while Assange was tweeting in an embassy and claiming political asylum.

Someone who wants to change the world, who seeks prestige and power, and who gains fame from someone else's sacrifice can be many things (and perhaps many good things) - but I wouldn't call him a hero.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#155

Post by patient_zero » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #89

I am genuinely surprised by the amount of positive comments here about Assange. It is clear that at a bare minimum he was used as a tool by Putin to sway politics in the US and is it seems likely he was a willing and active participant in that plan. For people who still view Assange positively, do you simply not care about that fact or do you just think the good outweighs the bad? EDIT: This comment is currently sitt…

I can't downvote, but in my mind to engage with this question is to lend it legitimacy. The debate then is unwinnable. See, if we frame our discussion on your terms (Was he a willing conspirator with Russia and Putin or merely a fool) then anyone with the beliefs like say, "Assange did the world some good by releasing documents the US government didn't want released" or "Assange was a powerful force for government transparency" then we have lost. I can't tell you why three people downvoted you, but my best guess is your comment is perceived as bad-faith.

Cheers

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#156

Post by pvg » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #9

What I've wanted for Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, and Chelsea Manning, and if Obama would have done it before leaving office, it would have earned him infinite respect: Try them, possibly even find them guilty of something, but also award them with the Presidential Medal of Freedom. What these people have done is probably illegal, but it is unquestionably about the most American, patriotic act you could commit. Sp…

By that logic, we'd have to give this dude

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Comey#NSA_domestic_wiret...

the Presidential Golden Eagle of Infinite Liberty.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#157

Post by viraptor » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #131

slg wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, it really is a disservice for people to lump them all together. Whisleblowing is an important act and it needs to be protected. But there is more to whisleblowing then just revealing secrets. Snowden handled things better than Manning by being more focused in what was revealed and filtering things through journalists. Both of them are worlds better than Assange. Lumping them together will only help turn peop…

I'd argue that Snowden's leaks would have been better sent to Wikileaks. We've seen perhaps 5% of the information, and much of the illegal behavior is likely still going on. The only hope that US intel agencies have to redeem themselves as working toward the interests of the people and not against them is to be totally transparent about all illegal behavior and to undergo a full audit to stop all of it.

If that was the process, we'd hear about everything lumped together and quickly forgotten about in confusion. The way it was published instead, people have time to process specific revelations and let the whole thing stay alive for multiple media cycles.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#158

Post by Faaak » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #154

blhack wrote: post #9

What I've wanted for Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, and Chelsea Manning, and if Obama would have done it before leaving office, it would have earned him infinite respect: Try them, possibly even find them guilty of something, but also award them with the Presidential Medal of Freedom. What these people have done is probably illegal, but it is unquestionably about the most American, patriotic act you could commit. Sp…

> It makes me profoundly sad how the world (or at least my world, mostly far left, liberal, educated, etc.) has turned so hard against Julian Assange. He's a hero in every sense of the word. In my world, heroes don't run from sexual assault trials. Is he afraid of prison, or of the sexual assault prosecution being a sham to punish him for what he published? Chelsea Manning was prosecuted and sentenced and more-or-les…

If you'd read the article, you'd know that the sexual charge was dismissed

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#159

Post by slg » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #152

slg wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly my point. Whistleblowing shouldn't be done with a shotgun approach that reveals all secrets. Every piece of information should be reviewed and judged in a vacuum as to whether there is a benefit to the public for it to be revealed. Wikileaks just releases everything and doesn't care about the public value or any negative results from that release. That isn't whistleblowing. You are free to agree poli…

I will continue to ponder your point, but I am inclined to disagree. Suppose we consider a two page document of classified information. Leaking one or two sentences from the document can be done in a highly misleading way. In fact, our officials routinely leak information in this way, fed to reporters to spin a narrative that supports a political goal. But seeing a trove of documents can make the broader malfeasance…

That isn't what Wikileaks is doing. They aren't releasing "a trove of documents [that] can make the broader malfeasance much more clear". They are releasing absolutely everything they receive. The simplest example is their refusal to redact the names of Afghani civilians who worked with the US government and therefore put their lives in jeopardy. That type of action by Wikileaks says that they believe their political opinions are more important than the lives of innocent civilians. That isn't whistleblowing.

Re: Ecuador will hand over Julian Assange to the UK

#160

Post by lostlogin » Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #80

briandear wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a curiousity, is “far left” and “liberal” even related? Seems like the far left and far right are two sides to the same totalitarian coin. Liberal implies a respect for the freedom of individuals while “far left” puts the collective over the rights of the individual. The word liberal has lost its meaning. The far left (and far right) is incompatible with freedom. Cases in point: Venezuela, Cuba, the Soviet Union…

in the US, the left uses liberal institutions because being far left is tolerated by liberal society in a way that being far right is not

Could you clarify - are you saying that being far right isn’t tolerated in the US? Or that being far right isn’t tolerated by liberal society in the US?