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Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

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Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#151

Post by mattnewport »

cfcf14 wrote: post #32

Canadian living in London for about 4 years now - of course people are leaving. The pay is incredibly low in major Canadian cities like Vancouver & Toronto; I was looking at 50-60k/yr there, ~150k in the US, or about 60-70k GPB in London. Now, London isn't exactly cheap, and my overall buying power here is probably only mildly superior to what it would be in Canada, but I get to live in a great city with all the amen…

As a Brit living in Vancouver I have the opposite perception, there's things I miss about the UK but all things considered I can't see myself moving back there. I know plenty of other Brits in tech jobs here who feel the same.

I guess it's partly what people value and partly a novelty effect of appreciating differences when you move overseas but I often see that Brits and other immigrants like Vancouver better than the people who grew up here (though there's an obvious selection effect there) and the same seems to be true in reverse for many Canadians who go to live in the UK.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#152

Post by cmrdporcupine »

okfine wrote: post #112
Kelbit wrote: post #13

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice. As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signi…

"If Canadian companies were willing" This comes up in every thread about Canada, but it seems a lapse of logic to anthropomorphize a market like this. The market doesn't "will" anything, and people's willingness to offer/accept a salary is more a consequence of local conditions than a cause. Those conditions include the option of getting paid more if you're willing to leave the country, which some are. Presumably tha…

Yes, using personalized anthropomorphic terms is silly.

Except that behind the Great Toronto tech market there are real people, making decisions. At the government, at the investment, and at the management level.

And by and large those people have made decisions which see engineering talent here as a resource that they have to push the cost down on even if it means losing domestic talent to the US.

Part of this is accomplished by importing talent from abroad or exporting the work abroad, or underpaying when they can get away with it. It's not a surprise that locally developed talent leaves after graduation, when the industry is actively recruiting from abroad.

And part of this is relying on the percentage of talent hat simply will not or cannot consider moving abroad (people like myself).

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#153

Post by soperj »

chrischen wrote: post #150
whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

It will be hard to get startups to be based in a Canada if their target market is the US. We’re talking a difference of 36 million people vs 300 million. When it comes down to it Canada looks big but is a really tiny country.

35 million but whatever. (edit: this was in response to it having 25 million people, not 36 million) It's kind of like saying that California is a really tiny state.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#154

Post by digianarchist »

mabbo wrote: post #118
Kelbit wrote: post #13

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice. As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signi…

> staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting Amazon Toronto starts new grads at like $80-100k last I heard. It's not as good as you can get in Silicon Valley, but rent in Toronto (while still high) is much lower than in the Valley.

Engineer with 5 years experience earning $117k CAD ($91k USD) in North York. I don't see a lot of jobs under $85k CAD in Toronto.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#155

Post by ryanobjc »

_xzxj wrote: post #134
whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

Canadian here (who lives outside of Canada but recently did a stint there for a bit) and this will sound negative but f-it. Canadian culture sucks when it comes to trying new things. Canada has some extra safety net but the culture is puritanical and conservative and nobody wants to go out on a limb and try something new and crazy. Not like Americans. Those that do are constantly questioned by everybody. The idea of…

The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US.

To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might rock the boat. To these types, those who make a fuss are bothersome and ignorant at best, and probably dangerous and destructive too."

I was born in Canada. I went to school in Canada. Only once I moved to the US did I feel like I could express and be myself. That I am surrounded by people who think like I do and value the things I value. Dogmatic adherence to the way it's done, because change is dangerous is the default state of many Canadians. For those who it's not, well, you know them, they're already living in the US.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/jordan-peterson-c...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#156

Post by alexhutcheson »

eriktrautman wrote: post #146
downrightmike wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't want to pay any taxes, and maybe hire 1 person within 5 years? Try NewYork: https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program

Hiring anyone in new york is a bloody nightmare. Strongly avoid if possible.

Because the market is too competitive, or for some other reason?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#157

Post by digianarchist »

sidlls wrote: post #132
mabbo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting Amazon Toronto starts new grads at like $80-100k last I heard. It's not as good as you can get in Silicon Valley, but rent in Toronto (while still high) is much lower than in the Valley.

What are rents like in Toronto? Are they $700 - $1300 per month lower (the difference of $20k - $40k net of taxes is about that)? If not, it doesn't make sense to work in Toronto. The same situation exists across the US. For example I can get a mortgage on a nice place in the Midwest that is half my current rent in SV. That amounts to about $24k/year. However I'd have take a pay cut of about $40k gross (or more) for…

I pay $1750 CAD for a 1 bed + den near to the subway line. It's around 700 sqft.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#158

Post by topspin »

whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

Those are reasonable ideas, but they'll involve a lot of effort to move policy makers around. A simpler solution may be to rely on media sources that report a preferred reality. For instance:

4/20/18 Bloomberg: Engineers Are Leaving Trump’s America for the Canadian Dream

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#159

Post by giarc »

chrisseaton wrote: post #119
giarc wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I'm not arguing the fact that Canadian grads are going south, I'm just pointing out the specific details which are important. Not only the fact that the rates are for 3 schools in Canada, but also their techniques to find people were to view their linkedin profiles. Why not go to Alumni Affairs at these schools and get contact lists? Not everyone has a LinkedIn profile, and by only contacting those with a pr…

> Why not go to Alumni Affairs at these schools and get contact lists? Because of data protection laws?

Alumni Affairs conducts surveys of their members all the time. The researchers could have approached them, had alumni affairs send out a survey to particular students and received a much better representation of the student population.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#160

Post by ng12 »

whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

> who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions.

Where does this perception come from? Canada has stricter immigration rules than the USA.

EDIT: Specifically what I'm talking about is that Canada only allows in immigrants who are economically desirable and speak English or French.

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