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How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

nytimes.com

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Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#151

Post by fulafel »

sfifs wrote: post #144
fulafel wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When power gets more expensive in the evenings, a lot of heating/cooling/charging loads may shift in time. Also, hvdc grids let you transmit over a couple of timezones. (And wind does not have the problem the first place, obviously)

Heating and cooling needs are fairly inelastic temporally. Your house is going to get cold in winter and hot in summer. You'll need to consume energy for this which is largely during the evening when everyone returns from work as you have fewer and fewer single income families. The refrigerator runs through the day. Sure you can set the dryer and dishwasher if you have one to run at a time when the power rates are lo…

You can cool or warm your house preemptively during the day/early evening (if you have reasonable insulation). Or heat/cool a tank of water.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#152

Post by jbattle »

fulafel wrote: post #137
coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

When power gets more expensive in the evenings, a lot of heating/cooling/charging loads may shift in time. Also, hvdc grids let you transmit over a couple of timezones. (And wind does not have the problem the first place, obviously)

Shifting heating & cooling demand sounds difficult. Without a lot of distributed energy storage

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#153

Post by saalweachter »

sfifs wrote: post #144
fulafel wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When power gets more expensive in the evenings, a lot of heating/cooling/charging loads may shift in time. Also, hvdc grids let you transmit over a couple of timezones. (And wind does not have the problem the first place, obviously)

Heating and cooling needs are fairly inelastic temporally. Your house is going to get cold in winter and hot in summer. You'll need to consume energy for this which is largely during the evening when everyone returns from work as you have fewer and fewer single income families. The refrigerator runs through the day. Sure you can set the dryer and dishwasher if you have one to run at a time when the power rates are lo…

You can add components with high, desirable thermal mass to your heating/cooling system to time-shift that as well. You heat and cool your thermal mass when energy is cheap and then use your thermal mass to heat and cool your house much more efficiently during expensive energy periods.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#154

Post by fulafel »

ams6110 wrote: post #143
fulafel wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When power gets more expensive in the evenings, a lot of heating/cooling/charging loads may shift in time. Also, hvdc grids let you transmit over a couple of timezones. (And wind does not have the problem the first place, obviously)

If possible, but it may only get worse. If EVs become more prevalent, it will only increase the evening demand as most people will charge when they get home from work. Sure, maybe with timers you can shift that to midnight or something, but it's still happening at a time when Solar adds nothing. You can't just toss out something like HVDC grids as a quick solution. That kind of infrastructure takes decades to build o…

I'm not sure why you discount charging during the day. Most EVs don't empty their battery by 6pm and require a full charge at 8am.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#155

Post by pjc50 »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #17
kylegordon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this where pumped storage and other forms of storage come into play? Here in Scotland we routinely pump water back up into our lochs in order to store it for future use. There's also various news articles reporting on German mines beginning to be used as pumped storage sites, with a reservoir on the surface, and water dropping into the mines below when there's sudden demand. This is a good problem to have, thou…

According to Wikipedia we have 15 GWh of pumped storage capacity in Scotland. Per annum we use 27,000 GWh. So by my calculations we have a pumped storage battery that lasts about 5 hours. (NB: I didn't check whether the power output of this battery is enough to actually meet demand, but wikipedia says it can run at full capacity for 22 hours, so no)

Sounds about right. It's used for demand-smoothing over fairly short periods.

(I've been to Cruachan, well worth the visit even though you can't walk around the turbine hall any more)

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#156

Post by toomuchtodo »

saalweachter wrote: post #153
sfifs wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heating and cooling needs are fairly inelastic temporally. Your house is going to get cold in winter and hot in summer. You'll need to consume energy for this which is largely during the evening when everyone returns from work as you have fewer and fewer single income families. The refrigerator runs through the day. Sure you can set the dryer and dishwasher if you have one to run at a time when the power rates are lo…

You can add components with high, desirable thermal mass to your heating/cooling system to time-shift that as well. You heat and cool your thermal mass when energy is cheap and then use your thermal mass to heat and cool your house much more efficiently during expensive energy periods.

Indeed! In Florida, I use my 10k gallon pool to dump heat from the house into until its thermal capacity has been reached, at which point the heat exchanger switches back to using the condensor unit. Along with my solar panels, my only grid use is for charging an EV at night if it’s not home during the day.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#157

Post by eropple »

delbel wrote: post #106
nabla9 wrote: post #15

The interesting question is what effect clean energy has to the usage of hydrocarbons. Will it bring reduce global demand or just reduce the price of energy. The good news is: CO2 emission intensity is going down globally and emissions per capita in US, China and EU28 are going down. The bad news are: Emissions per capita are still going up globally, and hydrocarbon usage and CO2 emissions are breaking records year a…

As a new farmer, this is good news. My target range for CO2 is 1200ppm. This means our future will be greener! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkDgYLxp8Sg

You posted a link to a rabbithole of fascist-cheering, bone-stupid argumentation, and conspiracy theory. Setting aside their fairly obvious attempts at political astroturfing, the depths to which those people are lying with regards to AGW to people who lack the scientific literacy to evaluate the arguments being made is appalling. So are their race-baiting shithead politics, but this more bluntly--I mean, this is math.

I make this post assuming you're not in on it.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#158

Post by protonfish »

coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

I would think this could be fixed simply by cooling the home lower than optimal at peak solar, plus some thermal storage.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#159

Post by blang »

fulafel wrote: post #154
ams6110 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If possible, but it may only get worse. If EVs become more prevalent, it will only increase the evening demand as most people will charge when they get home from work. Sure, maybe with timers you can shift that to midnight or something, but it's still happening at a time when Solar adds nothing. You can't just toss out something like HVDC grids as a quick solution. That kind of infrastructure takes decades to build o…

I'm not sure why you discount charging during the day. Most EVs don't empty their battery by 6pm and require a full charge at 8am.

I'm guessing because there is less availability for charging during the day when you are at work, rather than at night when you are home.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#160

Post by coryfklein »

IpV8 wrote: post #140
coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

California and Hawaii have already implemented price curves that make purchasing solar + storage viable for homeowners. As more states adopt these policies and more homeowners adopt batteries the duck curve can be solved. Also battery storage gives the added benefit of not needing a gas generator when the grid goes down if you have an islanding system!

How does one implement a price curve? By supply & demand, it is just the result of energy production + energy usage. Are you saying that California has somehow made energy scarce during the day or are you talking about price manipulation?
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