An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#151

Post by racer-v » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

oldandtired wrote: post #150

emodendroket wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody cares what your philosophical objection to tipping is. Functionally, there is no difference between you and a tightwad. The custom in the United States is to tip and the entire system is built around this expectation. Whether this meets your Platonic ideal of what a "gratuity" ought to be is really just completely irrelevant. I'll go further: if you are visiting a different country you should make an effort to…

The problem here, is that you cannot see that your economy is based on establishing social injustice in all areas. Tipping, as a requirement because businesses don't pay their employees fairly, is to be treated as a moral obligation on someone who is not part of that process instead of a symptom of the basic injustice of the employer/employee relationship. The only tightwads here are the businesses (and the employees…

The idea is that if you don't get good service, you don't have to pay the tip. People whose incomes consist mainly of tips can make absolutely crazy amounts of money if they're good at their jobs and work hard. It's not for everyone but it works for some people. I wouldn't want to rely on being tipped out because I really don't have the personality for it.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#152

Post by oldandtired » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:41 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #146

oldandtired wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it isn't. The customer has no part in the wage negotiations between business and employee. All it shows is that they (business and employees) are not being honourable towards each other or to their customers. A business should set it prices so that it fulfils it responsibilities (including to it staff). If the business cannot run at the prices so set then it fails. That is not the responsibility of the customer t…

If you get on a packed morning commuter train and start playing music on a boombox, you're not breaking any laws and nobody can stop you. Nevertheless, anybody with their head screwed on is going to think you are acting like a jackass.

Agreed. However, the jackasses in relation to employer/employee wage negotiations are not the customers but the two parties involved.

If I was to negotiate with some other party that whenever you came within 100 metres of my awesomeness that you would be required to pay me 4000 drachma, what would your response be? The acting of tipping is a personal acknowledgement that the person has placed your actions so far above the norm that they consider it appropriate to honour you in some way.

What you are wanting is to have other people say that your actions are so outstanding that, even though they are nothing actually extraordinary, you should get something extra because of your awesomeness.

If you are not getting paid for doing your job, why on earth are still working for the tightwad (your words) who has employed you?

You are conflating a private negotiation as though it is a public interaction. It's not.

I have worked for lots of different companies over many years. My own attitude is that if the employer is not worth working for, then you don't work for them. If they pay rubbish wages for serious work, you don't deal with them. If they are tardy paying you, then you finish up with them and move on.

If I need to work in a remote place to cover the bills I have, then I work in a remote place. If I have to change industries or learn a new job then I will and have done so. If you don't consider yourself worthy of fair wages then that's a problem you have to get over.

Too many people think they are constrained by their circumstances and instead of doing something, they wallow in self pity. I have met those who had nothing or had lost everything due to circumstance and they have been an inspiration because they made a choice to do something about it.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#153

Post by oldandtired » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:51 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #143

oldandtired wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I be considered a cheapskate when I don't tip? I choose to buy goods and service from whomever I please. The prices are set and that is what the agreement is. The agreement is between me and the business. Wages are an agreement between the business and the employee. If the two want to agree to a specific wage regime that is their right. But it in no way, obligates any customer to supply any shortfall betwe…

Because everyone who lives in the United States understands that there is an expectation that if you go to a restaurant you will tip the server in all but the most egregious circumstances. You may as well ask why it's considered rude to eat with your hands while making loud noises when, after all, there's no rule you have violated by doing so. Furthermore, I'm going to make the assumption that, since you're posting h…

I care full-time for my wife and I don't have the resources to eat out. That is a luxury for us. It takes much time to afford such treats. I have less income than many who cry poor, but live comfortably because we manage what we have so that we can. I have worked in very low paying jobs and that was my choice at the time. When it become infeasible to continue working in that area, I left and found other work that paid better.

The only ones picking the pockets of low-wage workers are those who are responsible for paying those workers - the businesses they work for (they are the cheapskate - not the customer). A customer is not responsible for the workers failure to negotiate a fair wage nor are they responsible for the failure of those workers to find better employment.

If you want it fixed then fix it where it needs to be fixed first - the negotiation of wages between business and employee. If you work for a robber baron then expected to treated like a serf or villain.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#154

Post by KozmoNau7 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:38 AM UTC

Can_Not wrote: post #136

cornholio wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I have to pay to play the lottery? If that case, it's practically equivalent to a ticket price of (lottery price)*(probability of winning), so you haven't really solved anything, the scalpers will buy many lottery tickets. Double more so if the lottery is free, then the price becomes expressed as the grinding of multiple identities, straw buyers, etc. into fooling the system to give them more chances; scalpers are…

Would a limit of 2 per verified cellphone or 5 per credit card fix this?

As mentioned in the article, the scalpers have hundreds of credit cards, and could buy large amounts of burner phones as well.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#155

Post by KozmoNau7 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

Can_Not wrote: post #135

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of assumptions in that piece, especially regarding the motives of artists and the fan/idol relationship. It is absolutely not a normal type market, and it shouldn't be treated like one. The way forward is not to inflate ticket prices, ensuring only the richest fans can afford to go to concerts, and screwing over the ordinary people. The way forward is to make it illegal to resell tickets at higher tha…

Why not a blind auction? Have everyone who wants a ticket choose any value above $10 (including $10). The highest 10,000 (presumed seat capacity) priced bids get their tickets. If there is a tie at the end, sort by first come, first serve, excluding excessive bulk orders.

Thus unreasonably favoring those people with large disposable incomes, and screwing over those who would have to save up for the usual ticket price.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#156

Post by KozmoNau7 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:44 AM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #133

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's just random chance. People usually don't like that sort of thing, outside of literal lotteries.

That's the entire point. Anything other than random chance means that someone has "priority". Priority which is typically decided by spending resources. Either time by waiting in queue. Or money by buying at higher than face value from a scalper -- who probably waited in queue, thereby exchanging their time for money. If the principle being striven for is fair , then most fair to me would be to allow all potential at…

Fans don't want a lottery, though. They want to be 100% sure they have a ticket to the show. It's a gratification thing.

Not everything can be 100% optimal and profit maximized. The current ticket sales method works great, if you eliminate the rent-seeking scalpers, through simple regulation.

However, ideally we should also consider it shameful to buy from scalpers. You run a high risk being scammed, they can resell the same ticket multiple times, and you have no recourse.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#157

Post by oldandtired » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 8:51 AM UTC

racer-v wrote: post #151

oldandtired wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here, is that you cannot see that your economy is based on establishing social injustice in all areas. Tipping, as a requirement because businesses don't pay their employees fairly, is to be treated as a moral obligation on someone who is not part of that process instead of a symptom of the basic injustice of the employer/employee relationship. The only tightwads here are the businesses (and the employees…

The idea is that if you don't get good service, you don't have to pay the tip. People whose incomes consist mainly of tips can make absolutely crazy amounts of money if they're good at their jobs and work hard. It's not for everyone but it works for some people. I wouldn't want to rely on being tipped out because I really don't have the personality for it.

Yes they can. It is a mindset that says you will treat your clientele (they are not just customers) with the absolute highest service and consideration. Most people cannot get to this point.

I don't have the personality to do this - I am considered to be far too blunt and abrasive. Yet, even though I am this, I consider it extremely important to treat my clients in a manner that says that I will solve their problems and actually do this. None of this work ever involved tips, it was a part of the service that I thought necessary.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#158

Post by mlok » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 10:33 AM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #15

That's the beginning of the excellent book "au bonheur des ogres", where you learn that the hero's karma is to be a scapegoat. It's his job. It's his relationships. Also when a bomb explodes, of course, all evidences point toward him even though is the very definition of innocence. Wonderful work from the great Daniel Pennac, which can stand on it's own, but has follow up tomes that are just as nice. And I just looke…

I loved the book, and that part has stuck through the years. (amongst other remarkable parts of this book) Now I wonder if Pennac had heard about this story and if he was inspired by it.

It always made me think of L'Arrache-Coeur by Boris Vian, where we can find "La Gloïre", this old man whose job was to literally swallow the shame of everybody else.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#159

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:02 AM UTC

oldandtired wrote: post #150

emodendroket wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody cares what your philosophical objection to tipping is. Functionally, there is no difference between you and a tightwad. The custom in the United States is to tip and the entire system is built around this expectation. Whether this meets your Platonic ideal of what a "gratuity" ought to be is really just completely irrelevant. I'll go further: if you are visiting a different country you should make an effort to…

The problem here, is that you cannot see that your economy is based on establishing social injustice in all areas. Tipping, as a requirement because businesses don't pay their employees fairly, is to be treated as a moral obligation on someone who is not part of that process instead of a symptom of the basic injustice of the employer/employee relationship. The only tightwads here are the businesses (and the employees…

No, I do not employ anyone. But I find this entire line of argument ridiculous. If someone wants to take a stand against tipping, they should make the sacrifice themselves by not eating out or going to restaurants that accept tips. What they should not do is go to an establishment where they know full well it's expected they'll tip and then refuse to do it. There's nothing honorable about a stand taken at someone else's expense. Stiffing your waiter does nothing to affect the systemic issue. It is, morally, the worst of all worlds, since you benefit from a system you describe as morally unjust and then refuse to participate in the expected palliative behavior.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#160

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:10 AM UTC

oldandtired wrote: post #152

emodendroket wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get on a packed morning commuter train and start playing music on a boombox, you're not breaking any laws and nobody can stop you. Nevertheless, anybody with their head screwed on is going to think you are acting like a jackass.

Agreed. However, the jackasses in relation to employer/employee wage negotiations are not the customers but the two parties involved. If I was to negotiate with some other party that whenever you came within 100 metres of my awesomeness that you would be required to pay me 4000 drachma, what would your response be? The acting of tipping is a personal acknowledgement that the person has placed your actions so far abov…

> The acting of tipping is a personal acknowledgement that the person has placed your actions so far above the norm that they consider it appropriate to honour you in some way.

That is not really what tipping means in the United States.

> I have worked for lots of different companies over many years. My own attitude is that if the employer is not worth working for, then you don't work for them. If they pay rubbish wages for serious work, you don't deal with them. If they are tardy paying you, then you finish up with them and move on.

Yeah, I don't think your experiences as a computer programmer are necessarily applicable to someone who works as a waiter at a greasy spoon or as a pizza delivery driver. I'm gonna guess you've never been in a position where you had to do low-wage work. It's not a negotiating kind of a situation; it's a "take it or leave it" kind of situation.