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Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

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Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#151

Post by weberc2 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #104
weberc2 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many cities in the US have police who "murder unarmed black men" regularly to begin with? Of course if that number is small, then the number of cities who regularly convict them will be small. You can't take the small number of cities that regularly convict as evidence of a problem.

Well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed black men and not being convicted have occurred all over the United States. This isn't a Baltimore problem, it's a US problem.

1. There are well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed men and not being convicted. "unarmed black men" is a red herring, because there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis.

2. My claim was that there are not many cities with a trend of cops murdering unarmed black men, so your comment isn't a valid rebuttal, however true it may otherwise be.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#152

Post by weberc2 »

talldan wrote: post #110
weberc2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When some cops are corrupt, does it matter that the rest might be decent? Yes. Of course it matters.

And what's your argument?

Generalizing a huge population on the basis of a tiny, curated group invites bad policy and general ignorance.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#153

Post by dragonwriter »

weberc2 wrote: post #151
kerkeslager wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed black men and not being convicted have occurred all over the United States. This isn't a Baltimore problem, it's a US problem.

1. There are well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed men and not being convicted. "unarmed black men" is a red herring, because there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. 2. My claim was that there are not many cities with a trend of cops murdering unarmed black men, so your comment isn't a valid rebuttal, however true it may otherwise be.

> there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis.

There's actually considerable evidence that adverse interactions with law enforcement of all kinds (and not just LE murder) are not evenly distributed by race.

Whether that is a result of deliberate LE racism vs. other factors which contribute to such encounters being distributed disproportionately by race has more mixed evidence.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#154

Post by weberc2 »

mikepurvis wrote: post #89
weberc2 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no evidence that even 1% of all police are complicit. What is your standard for "large enough"?

Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit officers standing with victims, insisting on justice for those guilty? Because that's the standard I'm calling for.

"Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit muslims standing with victims of terrorism, insisting on justice for those guilty?"

"Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit blacks standing with victims of black crime, insisting on justice for those guilty?"

If you assume that everyone in a group is guilty of some crime committed by a tiny fraction because there isn't evidence that 99% of them condemn the guilty, then you're participating in a conspiracy and you're validating a dangerous line of reasoning that can be weaponized against anyone, including groups that you care about and/or belong to.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#155

Post by weberc2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #153
weberc2 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. There are well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed men and not being convicted. "unarmed black men" is a red herring, because there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. 2. My claim was that there are not many cities with a trend of cops murdering unarmed black men, so your comment isn't a valid rebuttal, however true it may otherwise be.

> there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. There's actually considerable evidence that adverse interactions with law enforcement of all kinds (and not just LE murder) are not evenly distributed by race. Whether that is a result of deliberate LE racism vs. other factors which contribute to such encounters being distributed disproportionately by race has more mixed evidence.

Nevertheless, all of the data on LE murder agree that there is no racial disparity in victimhood. We can and should collect better data, but "police disproportionately murder blacks" is not supported by the evidence.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#156

Post by mikepurvis »

weberc2 wrote: post #154
mikepurvis wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit officers standing with victims, insisting on justice for those guilty? Because that's the standard I'm calling for.

"Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit muslims standing with victims of terrorism, insisting on justice for those guilty?" "Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit blacks standing with victims of black crime, insisting on justice for those guilty?" If you assume that everyone in a group is guilty of some crime committed by a tiny fraction because there isn't evidence that 99% of them conde…

But police _as an institution_ are entrusted with the public safety. The relationships between the officers and the institution and the institution and the public are both totally different than for the other groups you named.

It's not the same at all.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#157

Post by stmfreak »

alexwilde wrote: post #149
ralusek wrote: post #40

Body cams on police and actual consequences for misconduct. Some of the videos of people (of all colors) being unlawfully murdered have led to absolutely zero consequence for those responsible. Those with authority granted by the public should have HIGHER accountability and more severe consequences, not be able to subvert them altogether. It's not difficult to imagine the level of misconduct that is likely occurring…

I would add Education to the forefront of accountability. Police officer careers require no more education than a high school diploma/GED and the police academy, which is roughly 27 weeks. Imagine if being a police officer meant having a deep understanding of ethics, psychology (not just tactics) and law. Stop accepting any physically fit hothead off the street because they can be trained into the role. Lastly, as a…

I don't think training on ethics is required, nor would it be sufficient if not accompanied by a substantial change in accountability. Today's police are virtually untouchable. They know it, and act accordingly.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#158

Post by Clubber »

guildwriter wrote: post #123
Clubber wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Chicago seems to be a fairly unique place. Also, most of the police shooting incidents don't come out of Chicago. What are you trying to say by pointing out that gang violence is bad in Chicago?

The point that I'm making isn't that gang violence is bad in Chicago. I'm trying inform others why and what drives a significant portion of gang violence in Chicago and show it from the perspective of the people who drive that violence and what they're about. The parent poster was talking about how gangs become the law and order because of the lack of trust in police. I'm saying the issue is wider and deeper than tha…

I think I saw a segment on maybe Vice about Chicago. Yes, it is a hell scape. There are a lot of reasons, and some date back to the founding of the country. I think presently, the three big ones are: 1. As a country, we don't take care of our citizens, 2. The only solution we have to our societal everyday type problems is to call the police and let them handle it, 3. Police are trained to be police in the traditional sense, so their go-to method is to be aggressive and arrest people.

It's a downward spiral that has been going on for decades. To make matters worse, policing is delegated to the state and local levels, which aren't under the microscope that the federal government is.

It's also not just a black or minority problem. I say this because I believe many white voters are more complacent because they don't believe they would be affected by it. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the wrong police officer, you aren't immune to disastrous results. White voters shouldn't fool ourselves to believing they are unaffected. Remember blacks get killed disproportionately to the national population, but whites get killed in higher numbers.

It's depressing.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#159

Post by fao_ »

Density wrote: post #71
fao_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People will upvote and share any article that reinforces their existing beliefs and world view. People do that with accredited news already. For example, in communist circles there is some groups that believe that no matter what, everything that Stalin did was justified. They will bring up no amount of obscure scholars, and disregard large amounts of citations from modern scholars and new evidence to protect this w…

Are... tankies and bit coin bubble realists on the same page to you?

Typo. I meant the people hoping that bitcoin isn't a fad, against all evidence to the contrary.

Re: Baltimore Cops Kept Toy Guns to Plant Just in Case They Shot an Unarmed Person

#160

Post by weberc2 »

mikepurvis wrote: post #156
weberc2 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit muslims standing with victims of terrorism, insisting on justice for those guilty?" "Is there evidence of 99% of supposedly non-complicit blacks standing with victims of black crime, insisting on justice for those guilty?" If you assume that everyone in a group is guilty of some crime committed by a tiny fraction because there isn't evidence that 99% of them conde…

But police _as an institution_ are entrusted with the public safety. The relationships between the officers and the institution and the institution and the public are both totally different than for the other groups you named. It's not the same at all.

First of all, police in the U.S. aren't an institution--they're beholden to local governments (and state governments in the case of state patrol). Ergo you can't [reasonably] generalize about police nationally based on a handful of malfeasants.

The idea that police nationally get together and conspire violence against the public or even a particular racial group is beyond absurd. This is among the most dubious of conspiracy theories, and I don't know how such theorists can hope to be regarded as credible, reasonable people.

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