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Homebrew 1.4.0

brew.sh

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Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#151

Post by lloeki »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #134
felixgallo wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck writing your own version and supporting it. Be sure to post your progress.

I wish I could click this upvote triangle a million times.

Or you could, like, do it.

Things are easier these days with great CI tools, cloud stuff like CDNs, cheap storage and bandwidth, and FOSS sponsors.

Scratching your own itch is something that can be worth being done at times. After all that's how Homebrew started, when people grew discontent of the complexity of MacPorts and Fink. There were dismissing words towards Homebrew back then too (like "wait till they have to do X").

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#152

Post by eridius »

felixgallo wrote: post #132
eridius wrote: post #122

> Homebrew requires the CLT on all but the latest version of macOS (to avoid copious workarounds in formulae) Why? What are these workarounds? The linked PR didn't explain, and as someone who's still got one machine on 10.12 I'd really rather not have to keep CLT installed as well. Edit: Wow, the maintainer on that PR is a real jerk. He refused to answer a legitimate question (and locked the PR at the same time) beca…

Good luck writing your own version and supporting it. Be sure to post your progress.

Why would I write my own version? If I ditch Homebrew I'd just go back to MacPorts.

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#153

Post by eridius »

jonchang wrote: post #149
eridius wrote: post #122

> Homebrew requires the CLT on all but the latest version of macOS (to avoid copious workarounds in formulae) Why? What are these workarounds? The linked PR didn't explain, and as someone who's still got one machine on 10.12 I'd really rather not have to keep CLT installed as well. Edit: Wow, the maintainer on that PR is a real jerk. He refused to answer a legitimate question (and locked the PR at the same time) beca…

Why is it necessary for people to be polite in the face of rudeness? Especially when the person expected to be polite is volunteering their time for you? To enlighten the polite people who have not insulted Homebrew maintainers: the issue with requiring the CLT on everything but the latest version of macOS is because of the horrible workarounds. Grep the Homebrew taps for "Xcode-only", "CLT.installed?", or "clock_get…

Saying "the error message is terrible" isn't particularly rude to begin with. And if you're having a one-on-one conversation with someone, saying "I think you're rude so I'm not going to answer your question" is one thing, but in a public forum, saying "You raise a valid question but I don't like how you phrased something so I'm going to explicitly refuse to answer the question, then lock the PR so nobody else can ask the question either, and screw anybody who actually wants to know the answer" is unacceptable. It's really user-hostile and makes me not want to use anything that maintainer is responsible for.

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#154

Post by woodruffw »

eridius wrote: post #122

> Homebrew requires the CLT on all but the latest version of macOS (to avoid copious workarounds in formulae) Why? What are these workarounds? The linked PR didn't explain, and as someone who's still got one machine on 10.12 I'd really rather not have to keep CLT installed as well. Edit: Wow, the maintainer on that PR is a real jerk. He refused to answer a legitimate question (and locked the PR at the same time) beca…

I'm the guy who originally made Homebrew independent of the CLT (GSoC 2015).

macOS is a constantly moving target, and it's hard enough to get consistent behavior across multiple versions with the CLT installed. It's a losing battle that I've been fighting for the last 3 years, and it's one with diminishing returns (only a minority of Homebrew users don't want/need the CLT for other purposes anyways).

Edit: As for PR, we get a lot of issues and PRs that amount to handling a 1% case at the cost of the 99% case. When we get those, we have to consider both to time cost to ourselves and the future maintenance cost. We could probably be a little less brusque about it, but the reality is that we don't have the kind of labor or resources necessary to support maintenance-heavy features like CLT-free installs on older macOS versions.

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#155

Post by zachberger »

eridius wrote: post #122

> Homebrew requires the CLT on all but the latest version of macOS (to avoid copious workarounds in formulae) Why? What are these workarounds? The linked PR didn't explain, and as someone who's still got one machine on 10.12 I'd really rather not have to keep CLT installed as well. Edit: Wow, the maintainer on that PR is a real jerk. He refused to answer a legitimate question (and locked the PR at the same time) beca…

I had the same experience with MikeMcQuaid. I asked a question, he got offended, and then he locked the issue. I stopped participating in the community after this.

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#156

Post by s73ver_ »

ryandrake wrote: post #79
philip1209 wrote: post #19

The maintainer's tweet about interviewing at Google is one of my favorites: https://mobile.twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?la...

I dunno--to me that rant hints at a potential inability to take rejection well. No matter what company you're talking about, getting hired has a luck-based component, so you shouldn't take rejection personally. I've probably been turned down for 99% of the jobs I've applied for in my career. If I opened Twitter to rage every time someone told me "no" I'd sound like a lunatic. In my view, the correct response to being…

The problem with your view is that you're basically expecting everyone to be robots. I entirely can understand needing to vent like that after not getting a job for a very, very stupid reason.

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#157

Post by s73ver_ »

kindfellow92 wrote: post #135
philip1209 wrote: post #19

The maintainer's tweet about interviewing at Google is one of my favorites: https://mobile.twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?la...

Welcome to the free market, where private companies are free to hire or not hire at will based on criteria that works for them. Writing OSS doesn’t entitle you to any job. Also “inverting” a binary tree is a trivial computation exercise. There’s a difference between engineering and scripting. Homebrew is very much a scripting problem.

"Welcome to the free market, where private companies are free to hire or not hire at will based on criteria that works for them. Writing OSS doesn’t entitle you to any job."

Nobody is saying anything other than that. They're pointing out how dumb the decision is.

"Also “inverting” a binary tree is a trivial computation exercise."

It really isn't, especially if you're not doing it on a regular basis. Which I'd contend 99% of people, including those at Google, are not doing.

"There’s a difference between engineering and scripting. Homebrew is very much a scripting problem."

Aside from, you know, the entire infrastructure around it. That is very much an engineering problem.

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#158

Post by jonchang »

eridius wrote: post #153
jonchang wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it necessary for people to be polite in the face of rudeness? Especially when the person expected to be polite is volunteering their time for you? To enlighten the polite people who have not insulted Homebrew maintainers: the issue with requiring the CLT on everything but the latest version of macOS is because of the horrible workarounds. Grep the Homebrew taps for "Xcode-only", "CLT.installed?", or "clock_get…

Saying "the error message is terrible" isn't particularly rude to begin with. And if you're having a one-on-one conversation with someone, saying "I think you're rude so I'm not going to answer your question" is one thing, but in a public forum, saying "You raise a valid question but I don't like how you phrased something so I'm going to explicitly refuse to answer the question, then lock the PR so nobody else can as…

It's not much of an argument to say "well, it's not really that rude". Is it generous and gracious to communicate with people despite their rudeness? Sure. But should it an obligation, particularly for an open-source maintainer? Absolutely not.

Nor do I buy the "public forum" argument. You direct your writing to the audience you have (i.e., the person that asked you a question rudely), not an imagined audience that might be reading. "Lock the PR so nobody else can ask the question either, and screw anybody who actually wants to know the answer" is projecting; there's nothing about locking an issue that shuts down all conversations, just the one in the issue that is being discussed (that again, to emphasize, is a rude conversation anyway).

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#159

Post by brazzledazzle »

WillyOnWheels wrote: post #139
spiralganglion wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My immediate thought is that this is spoofed. I doubt anyone at Apple would be silly enough to allow software on an unannounced OS to freely send out analytic data. I expect they'd have some sort of filtering applied either right on their dev/test machines (something like Little Snitch, though surely built in-house) or at the network level.

It's incredibly weird since Apple employees are heavily discouraged from running Homebrew.

Why are they discouraged to run Homebrew?

Re: Homebrew 1.4.0

#160

Post by yashap »

eridius wrote: post #122

> Homebrew requires the CLT on all but the latest version of macOS (to avoid copious workarounds in formulae) Why? What are these workarounds? The linked PR didn't explain, and as someone who's still got one machine on 10.12 I'd really rather not have to keep CLT installed as well. Edit: Wow, the maintainer on that PR is a real jerk. He refused to answer a legitimate question (and locked the PR at the same time) beca…

Homebrew is an awesome, super useful piece of software that people put in tonnes of effort to maintain, for free. Your complaint was indeed worded rudely. Also, re: the “why” behind this commit, “to avoid copious workarounds in formulae” is already a pretty good description, I can see why he didn’t feel the need to elaborate.

Remember that maintainers of projects like Homebrew have to deal with an endless stream of complaints and feature requests, and don’t get paid to do so. If this commit is a big deal for you, just make the effort to bring it up in a nice, thoughtful way. Or, don’t use the software if you don’t like it/the maintainers.

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