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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#151

Post by yznovyak »

Marazan wrote: post #140
yznovyak wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can argue that heroin kills more people in one year than the government ever did.

Well, then there's the issue that Singapore's approach doesn't actually stop drug abuse in Singapore.

Care to provide any source for your claim?

Here's mine: http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drug-use/b...

Singapore has 0.18 drug related deaths per 100k population. With a population of ~5.6 million people this means 10 deaths per year for whole country. In comparison Portugal has 3x higher drug related death rate.

Regarding executions you can check wikipedia: > However, since the 2010s, execution has become far less common, with some years having no executions at all.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#152

Post by loorinm »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #126
nkurz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely downvote clear and well-written comments just because I disagree with them, but feel I need to make an exception here. Your "1" is true, but you prefaced it by claiming that it was one of the "major things" the parent was missing. I'm pretty sure he wasn't missing this, as indicated by the sentence "This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana". Number "2" adds useful distinctions regard…

We should never downvote a comment just because we disagree with it. We should only downvote comments that don't contribute to the discussion. If someone is blatantly wrong, their information could be a common misconception that needs to be addressed and seen by everyone. Comments we disagree with are most often very good additions to the discussion and should be upvoted, even if they're factually inaccurate but ther…

I never comment on HN, but I figured out how to log in just so I could express my enthusiasm for how valuable the above comment is.

I wish everyone in every debate ever could read what is written above. People not doing the above is the one major problem with public discourse today.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#153

Post by adventured »

zdkl wrote: post #135
adventured wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world consists of small nations, compared to eg the US or Germany. About 130 of the 195 nations have less than 20 million people. The majority of all nations have less than 9 million people. > If you're doing the census of an appartment block, do you count the flats or the people in each? If I were doing a census of an apartment block, I would count the number of flats and the people in each. For conceptu…

You're right but I don't follow. Do you have a point or did you just really want people to count countries in addition to relevant population numbers?

My point was very clear, I spelled it out in the initial reply:

"The world is still extraordinarily backwards when it comes to gay marriage."

I then referenced the fact that 70% of European nations don't have legalized gay marriage, as partial supporting evidence for just how backwards most of the world is on this human rights matter.

The attempt was then made to rationalize the fact that the majority of European nations don't allow gay marriage. To which I replied accordingly. What's not clear about any of that?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#154

Post by donkeyd »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> Gay marriage is a prime example

I think it's a horrible example in this context, because you can't compare being gay to being a drug abuser. One of them is nature, the other is nurture (at least, that's what research says, people are still debating though).

Also, you can't measure "corruption of society, or ruin the sanctity of marriage, or cause God to punish us", since they're all populist statements. The benefits of Portugal's drug policy are measurable however.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#155

Post by crdoconnor »

r00fus wrote: post #79
briandear wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any citation on fewer handguns, fewer deaths? Violent crime actually increased in the UK after they banned guns despite near simultaneous expansion of police funding. These issues aren’t as simple as you might imply. The demographics of Sweden are different than those of Chicago or Matamoros. Conroe, Texas has very high gun ownership and very low violent crime. New York has very low gun ownership and relatively low v…

Hmm - do you have a cite on your claims about the UK? It's hardly fair to ask for citations when you give none.

From what I remember the year handguns were banned was the year Harold Shipman's 100 odd patient deaths were reclassified as murders, leading to a spike that was characterized by the NRA as an increase in murder caused by banning handguns.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#156

Post by Richs99 »

adventured wrote: post #148
msg3 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No.

Please enlighten as to what would qualify as a wave of crime then, in your opinion. A 600% increase in acid attacks? A 200% increase in gun offenses? A 70% increase in knife crimes?

A 600% increase in what was a tiny number to start with is not a "crime wave"

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#157

Post by donkeyd »

andrenth wrote: post #150
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

How about accidental deaths? If you don't have a gun, there's a very slight chance that your kid will accidentally shoot itself in the head. In most European countries, accidental gun deaths aren't a thing at all. In the US however, it's a daily thing.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#158

Post by dalbasal »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

If you're going to look elsewhere, that opens up a new can of worms about what to consider or ignore. Take gun laws. Wildly divergent in law. Widely divergent in practice. wildly divergent in results.

I agree that the debate often ignored existence proofs, but... It can be hard to take this a whole lot further.

The Aussie gun example is used mostly because the narrative fits. The Tassie shooting leading to a buyback. But, there are lots of counties with all sorts of policies and realities. Which to compare to? Details can matter, as can all sorts of context.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#159

Post by dmitriid »

andrenth wrote: post #150
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Take Europe for example. Less homicides than the States, guns are pretty much forbidden (yes, they are all but forbidden in Switzerland, too).

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#160

Post by gt_ »

randyrand wrote: post #146
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

All the rights you brought up have a strong moral component. Moral questions can't be answered by looking to other countries with different morals.

Can you give an example of something relevant here which does not have a moral component?

There is something to your point regardless, but moral disparities do not proportionately account for the disparities here. The situations are more complicated. The political types of topics which seem to suffer here are laden with some impurity with considering. Many cultural and moral values shift like the wind, so why do political concerns seem so immutable? I think we would be fools to accept this as simply a moral disparity. I encourage considering a more complex model of social relations. The more significant influences at play here are symbolism, identity and politics.

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