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Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

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Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#151
post #80

I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students. Compare this with an elite public research university…

Brown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students). So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue. "Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their educat…

We probably disagree about the extent to which need blind admissions, on its own, addresses the problem of low enrollment from income students.

One factor here is that high achieving, low income students apparently are often unaware of the amount of financial aid available to them at elite private universities. They will often opt for a local state university, even though they would likely get a better financial aid package from the private.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/why-few...

"The reasons are varied, but a lack of finances is critical. Tuition can be prohibitively expensive. Elite schools often offer scholarships to low-income kids, but the schools have done a bad job of letting poor students know such assistance is available.

Professor Caroline Hoxby from Stanford University and other researchers found in a different study that many simply don't apply to elite schools because of something as seemingly minor as not having the application fee. There are fee waivers but, again, many don't know that."

On a related note, about half of UC students pay no tuition (this isn't an accounting trick where most of the costs are hidden "fees" - there are a few, but "no tuition" is what it sounds like in this case).

Another factor in the higher numbers of low income students at UCLA and Berkeley (as well as other UC's) is that UC takes a lot of community college transfers. This keeps costs low, and also may help bridge the "awareness" gap by making high talent low income students aware of the possibility of attending UCLA or UCB.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/upshot/californias-univer...

"Throughout, the University of California took deliberate steps to attract students of modest means. It kept tuition low and did far more to recruit community-college transfers than most elite state universities. The transfer pipeline is crucial, because many highly qualified low-income students— unaware of how much financial aid is available at some four-year colleges — first enroll at a local community college, where published tuition tends to be low."

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#152

If only they had $120M sitting somewhere they could use. I dunno, like a savings account or something. A really big savings account that's so big they have to hire asset managers to manage. It would be even better if this savings account was made up of money that good people donated to the institution with the intention that it be used to further education. Yeah, that would be really nice.

Oh, the intention is good PR. Not donating to an already rich school for "further education".

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to start by saying that it's awesome that Brown, Cornell, Yale, and whatever other Ivies are need-blind. That's awesome, and I applaud them for it. That said, economic status and academic performance correlate closely. A college that's very selective will necessarily filter out a lot of lower-income kids purely because it's hard to do extra-curriculars if you need to work after school and/or if you can't affor…

Why should a school select students based on extra-curriculars? Why is "working at a job" not considered an extra-curricular? Why should a college even choose the highest academic performers? It's an educational institution, not a contest. At the end of the day, what is a college optimizing for, and why? Colleges could be selecting for students who the college can provide the most value to, or which students need tha…

The college system as a whole does best when it functions as a matching problem for curricular difficulty. Past academic performance is a noisy predictor of future academic performance. Students admitted in the sciences at schools too hard for them transfer into humanities and social sciences at disproportionately high rates. Breaking the system inhibits the ability to provide the most learning overall by ensuring everyone can be challenged appropriately.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#154

>In 2016, the average Brown student graduated with a debt of $23,810... Considering the sticker price for an undergrad at Brown in 2013-2016 is approximately $250K, along with the higher median debt loads we're seeing from graduates of less prestigious, cheaper universities, it leads me to believe that these types of elite schools are comprised of two very specific types of students: 1. Wealthy privileged students wh…

3. The school uses a sliding scale of "need based", so middle income students are given some aid. More than very wealthy students, but less than very low income students. The end result is that middle income students pay a similar price to what they might pay in in state tuition at a state school. Why is your first thought that middle-class students are punished, and not that an institute of higher education, full of…

I will stand corrected if I can find the sliding scale with accurate data fulling explaining the formula.

But what I saw myself years ago at school, and currently hear anecdotally, is that most subsidies - from the feds, states, the university, scholarships and grants, etc. - seem to be distributed in a rapidly diminishing fashion instead of linearly (subsidies vs income).

In other words, the most poor (or certain minority groups), will get nearly a full ride. The truly wealthy at the other end will get very little, of course. But those in the middle get far less than would be expected if the subsidies were linearly scaled. And so once you earn just a bit more than the most disenfranchised, you don't get much, and instead get saddled with loans.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#155
post #85

Time for market disruption? How about free online MOOC that ends with a widely recognized (accredited) diploma. Lectures are free, same for notes. Exams are paid for. You learn on your own or in groups. With additional paid tutoring on request. Technology allows everyone to get MIT grade education for free.

You assume, wrongly in my opinion, that the main value of a prestigious university is the classes that they provide. From my experience (n=1) there are great instructors to be found at many (most?) universities. Indeed you will likely get better bang for your buck at your state’s public universities. The value of an Ivy League education is in the ressources available to you (e.g. funding for entrepreneurship or to go…

Education itself has huge vale: anyone willing to do CS degree is pretty much guaranteed $100k+ salary. In Europe you can get the degree for free / peanuts. Paying for "brand" offers no additional measurable skills / knowledge, it buys you prestige.

What you refer to as "access to network" is mostly cronyism. Paying Harvard fees is essentially buying into the right group of people (rich & powerful) who are vested into this cycle of elite recycling via hiring only "insiders" for best roles. I can't speak for US, but in UK it's been proven this happens a lot.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#156
post #79
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when bull market eventually runs out of steam? No more free tuition?

Yes. University endowments are all tied up in investments. This is necessary in order to grow the endowments and make them "permanent", since you need to replace what you spend with the interest you accumulate. However, it also introduces risk from unwise or unlucky investments. If there is a substantial market correction, and the investments of Brown's endowment are substantially impacted, programs like this will be…

So in a theoretical case of a major recession this fund that exists to help pay for education wouldn't be available - at the time when it would be most needed for families. This is upside down.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. The school uses a sliding scale of "need based", so middle income students are given some aid. More than very wealthy students, but less than very low income students. The end result is that middle income students pay a similar price to what they might pay in in state tuition at a state school. Why is your first thought that middle-class students are punished, and not that an institute of higher education, full of…

I will stand corrected if I can find the sliding scale with accurate data fulling explaining the formula. But what I saw myself years ago at school, and currently hear anecdotally, is that most subsidies - from the feds, states, the university, scholarships and grants, etc. - seem to be distributed in a rapidly diminishing fashion instead of linearly (subsidies vs income). In other words, the most poor (or certain mi…

Which schools are you looking at, anecdotally? Ivies work differently than most other schools by virtue of having larger-than-normal coffers.

For example, Harvard's financial aid works in much the way I describe. Families with incomes below 65K pay nothing, those with incomes 65-150K are "expected to pay between 0 and 10% of annual income", and those above that are evaluated on a case by case basis.

I'd play around with this[1], and see what you think. For a family of 4 with no liquid assets, you need to be making 265K a year to not get any aid. That puts you solidly out of the middle class anywhere except SV/NY, where I expect you could make an argument about CoL adjustments.

[1]: https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculat...

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#158
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone's saying it's all wasted, and I agree that a university in 2015 is going to offer a lot more to its students in terms of non-academic services than a university of 1985. But it's hard to argue that even half of that 500% is good spending. - The year I started my undergrad, there a mini-scandal where tuition was raised by over 10% with little warning and it leaked that the school President, having…

> never held a job outside of that college This happens a lot at universities. They are great places to work if you're OK with an "adequate" salary (with generally very good benefits and time off) and not being held accountable for very much. So you have staff people who have worked there for decades, if not their entire careers. Often entire families (parents and eventually their children) will be working there. Tho…

And it's horrible. At my alma mater this person was in charge of helping kids who were finishing their degrees find gainful employment. Some kids who came from poverty, were getting the first degree in their family, and finally they had a shot at an upper middle class lifestyle. And they're supposed to get advice from some schlub whose entire resume is "B.A., [Liberal Arts School You've Never Heard Of]" then "Career Services Officer, [Same School]"? I think of the ridiculous advice he gave me ("GPA is incredibly important for your resume even 20 years after you graduate" and "Put hobbies and interests on your resume that show you're a well rounded person!") and shudder to think of the nonsense he was telling people who didn't know any better.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#159
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Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gap is real, but parents with a million dollar house who aren't making enough while on retirement? That's most parents except for that huge asset. You're not in the gap in my view.

The difference is that some assets (in retirement accounts) are protected from financial aid inspection and inherited real estate is not. If that seems unfair, it is because it is.

Most parents aren't in retirement at that point, but yes, I see what you mean now. That is unfair.
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