Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans • Hacker News Board

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#91

Post by theseatoms » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

rbcgerard wrote: post #57

pc86 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not that loan-free educations are bad, but why is Brown raising $120M from alumni and the like, rather than lowering their tuition by $120M? Because the Third Associate Dean of Humanities can't fund their $600k salary with the goodwill from a more reasonable tuition. Snark aside, it's because the administrators are attacking a symptom - high tuition prices - and not the illness - administrative bloat and universiti…

According to Bain between 1995 and 2010 universities are proportionately spending significantly less on instruction and more on admin and support, and many of the universities spending is unsustainable. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11337193

This parallels the healthcare sector, where administrative costs have outpaced the cost of actual care. Both are markets heavily distorted by the federal government.

I worry that there's no solution to these problems that won't displace very many workers. One man's cost is another man's salary.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#92

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

CalChris wrote: post #77

pc86 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no fan of coaches being the most highly paid public employees in most states by any stretch (especially with the athletes earning at most a free ride and a rubber-stamped business degree), but at least the sports teams are bringing in revenue, and people willingly donate to build a new stadium, etc. The Humanities Dean isn't a revenue center for the college, and nobody is (knowingly) donating so s/he can get a ne…

Revenue is easy. Anyone can bring in revenue. Uber brings in revenue. The more important question is is the athletic department as a whole even profitable? At Berkeley, the football coaches make $16.3M. http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Cal-footba... The law school deans make $333,847. At the same time, Cal Athletics faces largest debt among all college programs. https://www1.salary.com/CA/Berkeley/De…

Most athletic departments fund not only the football coach's salary but the salaries of the coaches and staff for all the other "non-revenue" sports as well as all the scholarships. The big thing that has developed in the past decade are the conference TV deals such as the Big Ten Network. Schools make a LOT of money from that, as well as from other licensed merchandise, ticket sales, and donations.

If Cal Athletics is in debt, they are doing it wrong.

Athletics salaries and facilities are very visible and often breathtaking, but in general they are not the cause of tuition inflation.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#93

Post by harryh » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

How is $120M enough to do this? At a 4% withdrawal rate that's about $5M a year.

They say the average student is graduating with 23,810 in debt. That's about $6k per year assuming a typical 4 year undergraduate schedule.

$5M / $6k = enough to cover ~833 students.

According to https://www.brown.edu/about/facts, Brown has 6,580 undergraduates.

Seems like they'll need about 8x this much money to accomplish their goal?

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#94

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #90

ben_jones wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the process sounds good in theory there is an ever increasing gap that people fall into between parents making too much money and parents not making enough. I'm bias because I fell right into the middle of the gap - my parents inherited an illiquid share of real estate that on paper is worth about a million dollars, in reality after taxes it yields maybe 40k/yr that my parents live off of (60+, no college). Bec…

Yep. My wife would like to be stay-at-home-mom, but she works so we can save $2k/month for two kids college expenses, currently in elementary school. Goal is to have $160k over next 10 years. So by saving, I'm screwing myself. It's equivalent to another mortgage.

You're not screwing yourself, you're taking responsibility. Financial aid comes with strings as well as a highly invasive personal finance anal exam called FAFSA (which database I'm sure will get hacked and disclosed at some point, if it's hasn't already, as most other big government databases have).

If you can pay your own way you avoid all that.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#95

Post by krull10 » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 6:05 PM UTC

okaram wrote: post #75

AlwaysRock wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the validity of your claim I think the answer to your question is why would Brown be incentive to lower tuition to eliminate student loans (lower profits) if they could just ask for it from alumni (same profits and free good PR)?

Brown (and all other Ivy League-ish universities) are non-profit; they do not seek (or have) profit

Most universities are run like a business. They are "non-profit" but essentially they are trying to generate "profits" that raise their endowment. Larger endowments mean more $ per year to spend on faculty, admin/staff, and student services/housing. Having more faculty and better student services/housing helps recruit more and stronger students...

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#96

Post by lallysingh » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #82

ben_jones wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the process sounds good in theory there is an ever increasing gap that people fall into between parents making too much money and parents not making enough. I'm bias because I fell right into the middle of the gap - my parents inherited an illiquid share of real estate that on paper is worth about a million dollars, in reality after taxes it yields maybe 40k/yr that my parents live off of (60+, no college). Bec…

Yup, and it leads to this perverse economic effect of middle class families that scrape together enough wealth to make a very positive situation, then get it all pulled back pretty hard because of outrageous tuition fees. Not that low-income students have it easy either. Sometimes it just feels like the rules of our society are lined up to keep the middle and lower classes in their place instead of supporting general…

That prosperity would detract from the wealth of the powerful, so they have incentive to avoid that.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#97

Post by dsfyu404ed » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #48

bmcusick wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why even use TAs for lectures? There's YouTube. There's automated software for quizzes and testing. Textbooks should be open source documentation, printed-on-demand. I'm not saying remove the human element entirely, but there's a lot of low hanging fruit in education to consider where technological automation can help improve the productivity of educators. Check out how Georgia Institute of Technology is offering a r…

I'm not saying remove the human element entirely, but there's a lot of low hanging fruit in education to consider where technological automation can help improve the productivity of educators. This x1000. With all the improvement in educational technology, it's weird that the gold standard of elite education apparently remains the lecture. I am reminded of the quote: College is a place where a professor’s lecture not…

> it's weird that the gold standard of elite education apparently remains the lecture.

What makes one a good prof/teacher/lecturer for a given department, subject matter or set of students may not make one a good prof/teacher/lecturer for a different department, subject matter or set of students.

The quality of an instructor as a prof/teacher/lecturer for a given department, subject matter or set of students implies nothing about the their quality in any of those attributes for the same setting or the same attribute if the department, subject matter or set of students changes.

I recall having a discussion with another student who had very similar abilities and interests. We agreed about the quality of the profs we had in common except for one where one of us thought he was a great teacher and lecturer but terrible at the rest of being a prof and the other thought he did a great job as a prof but was a terrible teacher/lecturer.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#98

Post by burritofanatic » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 6:12 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #80

I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students. Compare this with an elite public research university…

I can confirm the general profile of undergraduate students at UC Irvine. I graduated in 2004 as a first-generation high school/college graduate and went on for an advanced degree. A substantial number of my classmates were also the same. I believe in the UC because, for the most part, it maintains its mission of providing Californians access to higher education if you want it.

I recall the rule (not sure if it's still the same) that if you are within the top 10% of your high school class, you will be admitted to a UC campus so long as you meet a minimum SAT score.

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#99

Post by cphillips » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 6:16 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #80

I feel somewhat ambivalent about this. I'm glad that Brown wants to eliminate student debt, and I'm glad that low income students at ivies often pay no tuition. However, this doesn't change their essential model, which is to enroll a very small number of undergrads[1], deny admission to the vast majority of applicants, and generally lean toward affluent students. Compare this with an elite public research university…

Brown (and most likely all other Ivies) is need-blind (except for international students).

So, unless you think they are lying, your point doesn't stand on limiting low-income students. You point on size of college is an altogether different issue.

"Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented its need-blind admission policy. Need-blind admission simply means that an applicant's ability to pay for their education will not be a factor in the admission decision"

https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/financial-aid/nee...

Re: Brown University raising $120M to eliminate all student loans

#100

Post by rayiner » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #82

ben_jones wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the process sounds good in theory there is an ever increasing gap that people fall into between parents making too much money and parents not making enough. I'm bias because I fell right into the middle of the gap - my parents inherited an illiquid share of real estate that on paper is worth about a million dollars, in reality after taxes it yields maybe 40k/yr that my parents live off of (60+, no college). Bec…

Yup, and it leads to this perverse economic effect of middle class families that scrape together enough wealth to make a very positive situation, then get it all pulled back pretty hard because of outrageous tuition fees. Not that low-income students have it easy either. Sometimes it just feels like the rules of our society are lined up to keep the middle and lower classes in their place instead of supporting general…

Education is one of the biggest scams and it’s run 99% by the upper middle class. At elite universities, it’s upper middle class people fleecing upper middle class peoplle. At less elite universities, it’s upper middle class people fleecing middle and lower class people.