As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check • Hacker News Board

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#151

Post by gaius » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

dwrench07 wrote: post #6

Current Data Science Student at Galvenize in Phoenix here. I came from a mix of technologies (approximate knowledge, but a master of none) before settling into the data sciences (Python ecosystem). Galvenize has been precisely the challenge I was looking for and so much more. I barely got by the interview process, but picked up a Veteran Scholarship worth half my $16,000 tuition along the way. Quit my job as a Salesf…

"the data sciences"

Not just data science but "the data sciences" now! Where will it end?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#152

Post by nerdponx » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #119

samcheng wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Is a bootcamper over age, say, 30 going to be able to get an internship? The problem there is that internships are generally regarding across the industry as being for fresh college grads.

This is an issue for anyone looking to change a career, not specifically boot camp grads.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#153

Post by jasode » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #128

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

This also comes back to broader discussions about programmers needing to have worked on this stuff since they were kids. Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything other than to have enjoyed and done well in high school chemistry prior to college or to have chemical engineering "side projects."

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything

Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles was 10 when he was captivated by Fermat's Last Theorem.) Many biologists and zoologists when they were kids had a keen interest in nature and animals (beyond the typical children's "dinosaurs are cool" stage). Same for astronomy.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#154

Post by romanovcode » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:25 PM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #106

romanovcode wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UNI takes around 3-4 years to complete. Bootcamps are like 12-36 weeks. People who graduate from UNI actually know some things.

His point was that thousands of people coming out of bootcamps were saturating the market. My point is I think the market is bigger than that or bootcamps wouldn't exist.

Maybe you are correct but I think that bootcamps are created for attracting people to spend their money on a premise that they will get payed very good as programmers.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#155

Post by H1Supreme » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:28 PM UTC

marmart wrote: post #67

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the boot camp, but a boot camper would probably write better code than someone that's self taught.

Hack Reactor is touted as really exclusive, but it's a 12 week boot camp. Does anyone seriously think that 3 months or even 6 months is enough to become any sort of passable? A well paced, self taught programmer can surely strive to a higher standard.

That's my main gripe with these boot camps. If you're an experienced programmer with all the fundamentals in place, you could certainly learn a lot about a new language/framework in 12 weeks.

But, that's not who these things are aimed at. New programmers need time to absorb the fundamentals of programming. Getting pushed through some fast-paced program is the worst way to absorb anything.

I do like the idea of hopping right into writing applications vs the more traditional route, but it needs to be over years, not weeks.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#156

Post by H1Supreme » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #91

sheepmullet wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hack Reactor is ~11 hours a day 11 hours a day for 12 weeks can't compare with two hours a day for a year.

Apples to oranges.

More like Apples to sour grapes. 11 hours a day, of anything, is complete overkill. Especially something like learning how to program.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#157

Post by ameister14 » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #130

Alacart wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first argument is true, but I would argue that if you already know what you're doing, you can write some demo portfolio code specifically to show off your skills in very little time. Make that code pleasant to read, free of legal constraints, and be ready and able to talk about it. You probably will spend at least 40 hours a week at your job and it will dramatically affect your life. That's worth spending a few…

> Make that code pleasant to read, free of legal constraints , and be ready and able to talk about it. That would be difficult for people who work for companies that claim presumptive ownership over everything they produce.

Produce it on your own time, using no company resources. If a company claims ownership of everything you produce in your own time using your own resources, you've signed the worst contract possible and the company should go out of business. Most of the time, they claim things you make using their resources or company time. Avoiding that avoids most issues.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#158

Post by toastking » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:34 PM UTC

hugs wrote: post #131

puranjay wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working with computers all my life. I made static HTML/CSS/JS websites back in the 1990s before I'd hit puberty. I never learnt how to code though, but I know a lot of technical stuff. So I legitimately thought that "hey, I can learn to code in a few months" Nope. 12 weeks is hilariously less to truly understand coding. You can, at most, mimic the actions of the teacher. It took me quitting, then months of…

It makes me wonder if 12 weeks in a startup accelerator is also not enough time to truly understand how to run a business, either.

Also startup accelerators usually work with businesses that already exist. It's actually a good analogy. If you already know a little bit about coding and computer science a bootcamp can really help. If you don't have the drive to learn programming than a bootcamp can leave you with a huge skills gap.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#159

Post by gaius » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:35 PM UTC

pfarnsworth wrote: post #36

Same thing happened during the dotcom boom/bust. Newly-minted MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers) were coming out of the woodwork with almost no real experience, and immediately getting well-paying jobs ($80k-100k at the time). As soon as the bust hit, those certificates were worthless and those people moved away from the Bay Area in droves. They didn't have any real passion for the job, they just knew that…

Newly-minted MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers)

I had MCSE back in the day (my org wanted n of them so it could become a gold partner of Microsoft or something, and the perks such as MSDN subs and 10 support calls were nice).

What killed it was "braindumps", people weirdly undermining their own certification by posting the questions they could remember online, until databases of all the questions were built up, at that point you could literally just memorise the exam, or blatantly cheat in some locations. That was why it was worthless; but someone who had actually learnt the material the old-fashioned way would be competent.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#160

Post by vonmoltke » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

mikegerwitz wrote: post #135

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

Interest usually correlates with the desire to learn and explore on one's own time. If you have a team of interested developers/hackers, then the lack of enthusiasm can drag the team down, both in knowledge and culturally. This isn't always true, of course. Some developers can have excellent skill and have no interest in programming outside of work. I have a coworker that does virtually nothing outside of work, doesn…

> Interest usually correlates with the desire to learn and explore on one's own time.

I don't agree. Interest in doing a good job (i.e. work ethic) usually correlates with this, but I do not think work ethic corresponds very well with interest in the field.

> If you have a team of interested developers/hackers, then the lack of enthusiasm can drag the team down, both in knowledge and culturally.

I think part of my problem with the statements in this thread is that I would never put together a team of hackers to run a business. Your statement implies a team that is interested in tehcnology for technology's sake rather than as a tool to solve a business problem.