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Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

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Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#151

Post by ucaetano »

mabbo wrote: post #140
bnewbold wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To state the obvious, this proposal is antithetical to the concept of network neutrality. Also, the belief that there would be "competitors in the user's area that don't play stupid games" that offer comparable services (eg, within a factor of 5x bandwidth-per-dollar value) seems to be a misunderstanding of the utility/monopoly/duopoly economics in play in many regions of the USA.

> this proposal is antithetical to the concept of network neutrality Exactly the point I'm trying to make. If Google turns around and says "Fine, you don't like net neutrality? Let me show you how this works both ways". The ISPs do not make the product, they sell the access to the product. If the product goes away, then they aren't selling anything at all- and their customers will stop paying them.

You talk like customers actually have a choice in ISP...

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#152

Post by mrkrabo »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #126
ambicapter wrote: post #6

This has been the weakest day of action I could imagine. I thought sites were going to be throttled. Turns out its just some color changes and, oh, reddit has a fancy "slow-loading" gif for their website name. A real wake-up call!

This is exactly what I thought. Went to reddit.com...where's the Net Neutrality protest? Oh I just realized they made their logo a gif that looks like it loads slow...and they made a post... Went to google.com...the doodle is unrelated and I saw nothing about net neutrality on the site... Went to mozilla.org and I see absolutely nothing about it. I feel like I must be missing something here. Hackernews...looks the sa…

Why do you want to ruin the internet more for the rest of the world today?

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#154

Post by ucaetano »

mabbo wrote: post #19

If Google were actually serious about Net Neutrality, they would use their insane market power to protect it. How? Well, a simple statement saying "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products". No Google search, no YouTube, no Gmail. Have those requests instead redirect to a website telling the customer what their ISP is doing, why Google won't work with them, and how to c…

> Make the site list competitors in the user's area that don't play stupid games.

Which competitors?

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#155

Post by lerpa »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #16
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #12

Thanks in part to net neutrality, the open internet has grown to become an unrivaled source of choice, competition, innovation, free expression, and opportunity. Unless my history is wrong, and please correct me if that is the case, until the Title II decision in 2015, there were no regulations preventing an ISP from discriminating network traffic. So to say that Net Neutrality has been key to an open internet from 1…

Hasn't the spirit of the Internet always been about a neutral Internet? That spirit was being threatened and so regulations were put in place to keep it neutral.

If there are bad players, why instead don't you get rid of the legislation that gives them monopolies, so other people can offer better services?

Instead you're just giving the bad apples your money. Oh how awful for them... and they will put data caps and raise prices, because as long as the laws gives them monopolies you can't do nothing about it.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#156

Post by soundwave106 »

nickysielicki wrote: post #134

(This comment is a little bit disorganized, so I apologize for that.) Far too many people don't seem to understand the arguments against net neutrality as it has been proposed... There's been much made about the "astroturfing" and automated comments on the FCC website that go against net neutrality-- but what about the reverse? John Oliver doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Reddit and HN provide warped pe…

Network neutrality probably would not be as big of an issue if ISPs in America were not quasi-monopolies. In a market with healthy competition, it seems much less likely that the only choice available would be some tiered, managed entity that throttles back "non-favored" traffic -- perhaps that option would be available at the lower end, but a "power user" market with net neutrality practices would probably exist as well.

Unfortunately, many markets are served by only one high speed ISP in the United States. This makes the net neutrality fears somewhat more realistic.

I will say that from this angle, I put quite a bit more weight on correcting other anti-competitive practices pushed into law by communications companies. Things like states banning and suing municipal broadband efforts come to mind. The American marketplace for Internet ISPs as a result is quite distorted, certainly far from an open, competitive marketplace.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#157

Post by HugoDaniel »

thehardsphere wrote: post #139
HugoDaniel wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. These "things" don't come out of the air. They have a history and there is a reason why they behave like they do. Trying to argue that the internet should be like the [insert old behaviour here: cable tv, telephone, etc...] is ignoring the story as a whole and trying to push the argument for the wrong reasons. Here is a fallacy, but feel free to look into others: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon…

How is the type of switching relevant, exactly?

Why do you think the telephone had different prices according to the distance you wanted to phone ? That is because a dedicated circuit had to be established for your call to be made (sometimes with multiple protocols in between). This was crucial and defined the way operators organized and made their businesses. Unfortunately these businesses did not evolve as much as tech did and now you have net neutrality being questioned by the FCC chairman without a hint that he understands why do these companies behave like they do.

Now, my turn:

why do you use an app to call/talk to your friends instead of calling their number on your smartphone, exactly ?

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#158

Post by markdoubleyou »

cyphar wrote: post #75

I know this is "old news" now, but it's very fascinating that Google is suddenly so concerned about "the open internet" 4 days after EME was ratified (a proposal that they authored and forced other browsers into supporting thanks to their enormous browser share). It feels like Google (and other companies for that matter) are only concerned about "the open internet" when it benefits their bottom line. In fact, I'm not…

Yeah, wow, Google has written an email to a powerless online community. Bravo, that'll show Ajit!

I remember the mass freakout when Wikipedia shut down--journalists and congressional staffers suddenly couldn't do their jobs and suddenly it was front page news, not just a John Oliver rant.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#159

Post by lerpa »

thehardsphere wrote: post #132
EdSharkey wrote: post #87

I don't understand the logic of ISP's throttling certain sites based on the traffic to those sites. As a consumer on ISP's last mile lines, I make a series of TCP requests and I expect responses. Fill my pipes with those responses as best you can and charge me for the privilege. If you're not making enough money on that, charge me more for the bandwidth. Market-wise, why would an ISP anything else than fill my pipe w…

You're correct to ask these questions. The truth is that the entire motivation behind Net Neutrality is predicated on hypothetical behavior by an ISP that nobody has ever actually observed in reality for the exact reasons you describe.

ISPs have a lot to win with keeping their monopolies as it is.

Given the amount of alarmism it actually seems to me there is heavy propaganda advocating for the status quo, for some reason, perhaps they want further regulations that can be done more easily through net neutrality. Not sure.

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