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On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

nytimes.com

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Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#151

Post by rtpg »

Spooky23 wrote: post #127
rtpg wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because most of it is wrong? Most of the speech is around ideas that have been proven wrong over and over again. It's the same as when people come in and talk about a database that "solves" CAP. Perhaps a better example is climate denial. Why do I have to listen to decades old debunked discussions over and over again? EDIT: I also disagree with the premise. Loads of polite company will happily discuss immigration res…

Immigration issues aren't climate change. Why is it a moral imperative to import, abuse, and discard Mexican and Guatemalan workers to pick your fruit and butcher your meat? Why could you drive around to Home Depot in the morning and see construction guys and landscapers hiring mostly immigrant, often illegal day laborers for cash? My grandparents were able to migrate here legally in the 1940s without a pimp-like cor…

I am not arguing for the status quo. The hostage-taking of immigrant workers through things like corporate linking in H-1B is a tragedy and shouldn't happen.

I would rather solve the day laborer issue by going after the employers. Some immigrants take these jobs because they have no other choice, but employers are the ones actually exploiting people.

My impression was that the post was referring to the "classical anti-immigration" arguments that have been debunked like "immigrants are stealing our jobs" or "immigrants cost us money".

I'm very much for a humane system of immigration, that is to say being able to come into a country without having to be an indentured servant, and having the same labor protections as citizens.

I think you'd find a lot of pro-immigration people to be for this as well. A lot of corporations lobby for things like H-1B increases because it's much easier to get than "overhaul the immigration system to just let us hire who we want".

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#152

Post by natch »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #129

I'm going to take the contrarian position, just so people understand why this is so. For the uninitiated, read up the history of Tibet. They haven't always been peaceful monks. Most notably, the Tibetans sacked the capital of the Tang dynasty — one of China's most brilliant in terms of cultural accomplishments — in that dynasty's twilight years. For the Chinese, unity is a matter of culture and national security. Sur…

So do you blame today's Dalai Lama for the alleged sacking of the capital of the Tang dynasty? You must believe in his reincarnation then? Because I don't think he was alive in the Tang dynasty... yet you give this as a reason for denouncing him.

And who would be doing this supposed invasion and coercion you mention? Nepal? Really?

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#153

Post by int_19h »

dragonwriter wrote: post #56
erikpukinskis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're implying when you say it's "interesting". If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case.

> If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case. As much as Israel has colonized parts of Palestine by way of settlements, its nothing like the Chinese annexation and colonization of Tibet.

That distinction largely irrelevant in the context of how either is trying to interfere with freedom of speech on the campuses of American universities.

And the comparison is pretty obvious, because I can't think of any other countries that are doing something similar, at least on a noticeable scale (i.e. actually getting results they want).

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#154

Post by metaphor »

agjacobson wrote: post #48

In 2016, China landed a robotic rover on the moon. The NY Times had fairly extensive coverage. For a solid month, the main article was in the top ten of forwarded articles, assuring that all nytimes.com readers would repeatedly see it in a prominent sidebar. This is unusual behavior. NY Times readers are interested, but easily jaded by space travel. And nothing lasts forever a month. Finally, I complained to the nyti…

>> This is unusual behavior.

>> Click farm behavior.

2010 U.S. Census reported[1] 695,000 who self-identify as Chinese in the NY metro area alone...never mind LA, Bay area, Boston, and Seattle...only a few of the largest, wealthiest, highly educated cities in the nation. Are you sure?

[1] https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#155

Post by mistermann »

rtpg wrote: post #125
hyperdunc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you're concerned that anti-immigration speech is now more acceptable? If so, why?

Because most of it is wrong? Most of the speech is around ideas that have been proven wrong over and over again. It's the same as when people come in and talk about a database that "solves" CAP. Perhaps a better example is climate denial. Why do I have to listen to decades old debunked discussions over and over again? EDIT: I also disagree with the premise. Loads of polite company will happily discuss immigration res…

> Most of the speech is around ideas that have been proven wrong over and over again

I doubt it, most likely you are thinking of some set of straw man arguments of the left having been disproven.

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#156

Post by codedokode »

api wrote: post #34
HarryHirsch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation The conspiracy theory is that the war serves to dislodge the population and increase refugee flows to Europe to destabilize the region economically and politically. The war in the Middle East is in truth a war against the European Union, especially Germany. So the story goes.

I haven't heard that one. I have heard that it is a proxy war against Russia or China, but I'm not sure that makes sense either. Russia in particular has tons of oil and doesn't need any from elsewhere. The only thing that makes a little sense is that it's an end in itself: we must have war to support the war industry and it's associated jobs and social programs. It's not just corporations with an interest in this. F…

Is not war in Syria a war for controlling the country? Current government (Asad) for a long time had good relationship with Russia and allows them to have military bases there. If West-backed opposition wins, they will allow locating there american bases instead of russian.

I guess that is the primary reason why West supports syrian opposition and why Russia takes part in the conflict.

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#157

Post by mistermann »

porpoisemonkey wrote: post #134
mistermann wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our legal system allows you to challenge that. If a campus prevented your conservative group's speaker from speaking, you can sue and win. Sure, might as well sue mother nature for the temperature rise. What we're seeing is a force of nature, the legal profession cannot stop it, overall society has to choose to stop it, which means they have to choose to allow conservative voices.

> What we're seeing is a force of nature, the legal profession cannot stop it, overall society has to choose to stop it, which means they have to choose to allow conservative voices. I find this observation very strange considering the current political climate in the United States. Isn't the conservative voice the dominant voice being expressed in the executive and legislative branches right now?

Political leaders don't define the culture, the culture is defined by activists within the culture itself, and the left is winning.

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#158

Post by rtpg »

mistermann wrote: post #155
rtpg wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because most of it is wrong? Most of the speech is around ideas that have been proven wrong over and over again. It's the same as when people come in and talk about a database that "solves" CAP. Perhaps a better example is climate denial. Why do I have to listen to decades old debunked discussions over and over again? EDIT: I also disagree with the premise. Loads of polite company will happily discuss immigration res…

> Most of the speech is around ideas that have been proven wrong over and over again I doubt it, most likely you are thinking of some set of straw man arguments of the left having been disproven.

There's definitely a lot of strawmen being kicked back and forth in image macros ("You will pay for the illegal immigrant to go to school but not for the sick vet" meme was reposted a lot during the VA scandals)

But we do live in a world where a congressman said that nobody dies from a lack of health insurance. There is still a lot of "solved" debate that gets rehashed over and over again (see also things like the autism-vaccine link, based off of the debunked paper).

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#159

Post by int_19h »

CriticalSection wrote: post #150
int_19h wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That right there - where you call the homeland of a nation a "buffer region" - is the problem. China has the right to take care of its national security, sure. But not at the expense of the right to self-determination of other nations. Regardless of all that, though, Dalai Lama coming to speak is not an "attack" on Chinese students.

> China has the right to take care of its national security, sure. But not at the expense of the right to self-determination of other nations. How about the self-determination of the Meskwaki and Sioux nations? Do they have a say whether an oil pipeline gets run through their nations? The Meskwaki and Sioux are getting water cannons, pepper spray, dogs sicced on them. Americans talking about the "right to self-determ…

Why do you assume I'm American?

And yes, I do believe that Native Americans also have the right to self-determination. Funny thing though: I can express that opinion and not be jailed (or worse) in US.

Re: On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

#160

Post by photon-torpedo »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #22
api wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation. With the absurd cost of these wars we could just buy the oil, or pay for megaprojects to replace it with gas (even gas to liquids), nuclear, and renewable power. There seems to be no rational explanation for the immense gravity well of Middle Eastern war and how it drags in Democrats and Republicans alike even if th…

War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation The conspiracy theory is that the war serves to dislodge the population and increase refugee flows to Europe to destabilize the region economically and politically. The war in the Middle East is in truth a war against the European Union, especially Germany. So the story goes.

The refugee flow is only a rather recent phenomenon. US military action in the Middle East has been going on for much longer. Recall the first Iraq war.
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